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AstroGeek
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08 Jun 2012, 8:08 pm

Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.


To be fair, Ronald Reagan was a big proponent of the death penalty within the USA (which, of course, would not apply to any of his rich friends at all).

His "War on Drugs" led to the USA having the planet's highest incarceration rate.

He deliberately set about bankrupting the nation through enormous tax cuts for his rich friends, while at the same time massively increasing military spending beyond levels that were insane.

He appointed none other than James Watt as Secretary of Interior. His whole cabinet was a joke.



He was for raising the taxes on the rich as well but he couldnt get it passed.


No he wasn't.


Yes he was.

Well, one of you needs to provide a citation.



Last edited by AstroGeek on 08 Jun 2012, 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tim_Tex
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08 Jun 2012, 8:11 pm

I am sure he is a hero to those who believe in his cause, and an inspiration to countless others.

While we're on the topic of left-wing ideologues, does anyone find it weird that these people's revolutionaries are so popular with people who preach "peace and love", but in artwork and photos, they are often seen carrying an AK-47?



AstroGeek
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08 Jun 2012, 8:23 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I am sure he is a hero to those who believe in his cause, and an inspiration to countless others.

While we're on the topic of left-wing ideologues, does anyone find it weird that these people's revolutionaries are so popular with people who preach "peace and love", but in artwork and photos, they are often seen carrying an AK-47?

People who like Che Guevera but who preach peace and love are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

I also figure that Che must be rolling in his grave at how t-shirts and posters with his picture on them are now mass produced and sold for a profit. And it just generally ticks me off that people buy these things without really understanding who Che was.



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08 Jun 2012, 8:29 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I am sure he is a hero to those who believe in his cause, and an inspiration to countless others.

While we're on the topic of left-wing ideologues, does anyone find it weird that these people's revolutionaries are so popular with people who preach "peace and love", but in artwork and photos, they are often seen carrying an AK-47?


Forget just artwork and photos, in real life they're all about murder and torture

Che was an despicable sick human being. For all the supposed sympathy he felt for the peasants he saw on his motorcycle journeys, he didn't hesitate to imprison torture and murder all that was in his way. A hypocrite of the highest degree and true sociopath Anyone that idolizes this sicko is either completely ignorant or mentally ill. The people he might of fought against may not of been good people himself but that will never forgive the unspeakable evil that Che brought into this world.



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08 Jun 2012, 8:33 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am sure he is a hero to those who believe in his cause, and an inspiration to countless others.

While we're on the topic of left-wing ideologues, does anyone find it weird that these people's revolutionaries are so popular with people who preach "peace and love", but in artwork and photos, they are often seen carrying an AK-47?

People who like Che Guevera but who preach peace and love are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

I also figure that Che must be rolling in his grave at how t-shirts and posters with his picture on them are now mass produced and sold for a profit. And it just generally ticks me off that people buy these things without really understanding who Che was.


The real Che would likely have all of these bourgeois college marxists executed if he had his way.



ArrantPariah
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08 Jun 2012, 9:05 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Che was an despicable sick human being. For all the supposed sympathy he felt for the peasants he saw on his motorcycle journeys, he didn't hesitate to imprison torture and murder all that was in his way. A hypocrite of the highest degree and true sociopath Anyone that idolizes this sicko is either completely ignorant or mentally ill. The people he might of fought against may not of been good people himself but that will never forgive the unspeakable evil that Che brought into this world.


Methinks that thou exaggeratest a bit.

Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom." It would be extremely politically incorrect to say that Nelson Mandela was either "completely ignorant" or "mentally ill." He is neither.



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08 Jun 2012, 9:31 pm

Here is Che Guevara's speech at the United Nations

http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1964/12/11.htm

He raises some very good points. Although he was not a perfect person, I tend to regard him as more of a hero and patriot, than the other way.

It isn't as if the United States has been a perfect land of liberty, either.

Che wrote:
The United States intervenes in Latin America invoking the defense of free institutions. The time will come when this Assembly will acquire greater maturity and demand of the U.S. Government guarantees for the life of the blacks and Latin Americans who live in that country, most of them U.S. citizens by origin or adoption.

Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom? We understand that today the Assembly is not in a position to ask for explanations of these acts. It must be clearly established, however, that the government of the United States is not the champion of freedom, but rather the perpetrator of exploitation and oppression against the peoples of the world and against a large part of its own population.


This was 1964, and he did have some very valid points.



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08 Jun 2012, 10:22 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Here is Che Guevara's speech at the United Nations

http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1964/12/11.htm

He raises some very good points. Although he was not a perfect person, I tend to regard him as more of a hero and patriot, than the other way.

It isn't as if the United States has been a perfect land of liberty, either.

Che wrote:
The United States intervenes in Latin America invoking the defense of free institutions. The time will come when this Assembly will acquire greater maturity and demand of the U.S. Government guarantees for the life of the blacks and Latin Americans who live in that country, most of them U.S. citizens by origin or adoption.

Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom? We understand that today the Assembly is not in a position to ask for explanations of these acts. It must be clearly established, however, that the government of the United States is not the champion of freedom, but rather the perpetrator of exploitation and oppression against the peoples of the world and against a large part of its own population.


This was 1964, and he did have some very valid points.


That is true.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Kjas
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09 Jun 2012, 12:36 am

When I was younger I was intensely interested in Che and studied as much information on him that I could get my hands on, not because of who he was portrayed as but because I really wanted to know who this man was underneath all the crap on both sides that people spew in his name.

The picture I came out with after all that research was very complex.

Cuba previously was a country that had been under Spanish rule, which after the war, instead became a virtual colony or satellite of the U.S.A. and stayed that way until the revolution.

Che believed in his cause so much, that he could not see the inherent hypocrisy in some of the things he did.

He understood strategy very well, which was what made him a good guerrilla as well as a good commander and he deemed the end was more important than the means because of what was at stake.

Once Castro came to power, Che was very uncomfortable with many of the executions, although in a few cases he thought them necessary, the majority he was against, but did not voice this publicly, only in private.

Once things had settled down afterwards, he was often restless. Despite being an integral part of the literacy programs, agrarian reform and setting up the new economic system, he often was disillusioned with what he was doing.

He insisted on working one day per week for free with others on hands-on-projects which he insisted it was his duty to do. When he learned that he and his wife received certain "benefits" in the form of money and other material things because of who he was in the revolution, he insisted that they stop giving them to him and that they live like the rest of the people, much to her dismay.

That restlessness lead him to the Congo, and later to Bolivia. He was not the type of man who could be happy implementing something in the regular fashion and during these periods was usually when he was most disillusioned, he always had to be actively involved in the struggle itself.

While I think his goals were in the right place, I think the ideology he choose to implement them (e.g. choosing marxism) was inherently flawed. The ways of achieving something are just as important as the end goal.

As a person, he had a series of contradictions like most others. I do not think he is someone I would uphold for that reason.


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Last edited by Kjas on 09 Jun 2012, 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jacoby
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09 Jun 2012, 1:28 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Che was an despicable sick human being. For all the supposed sympathy he felt for the peasants he saw on his motorcycle journeys, he didn't hesitate to imprison torture and murder all that was in his way. A hypocrite of the highest degree and true sociopath Anyone that idolizes this sicko is either completely ignorant or mentally ill. The people he might of fought against may not of been good people himself but that will never forgive the unspeakable evil that Che brought into this world.


Methinks that thou exaggeratest a bit.

Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom." It would be extremely politically incorrect to say that Nelson Mandela was either "completely ignorant" or "mentally ill." He is neither.


I think Nelson Mandela's praise of people like Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Moumar Gaddafi says more about his own character and ideological beliefs than the people he spoke of. Nelson Mandela himself participated in militant activity and admits having committed 'human rights abuses' of his own in his younger days in the ANC's(which was considered a terrorist organization by the United States) armed struggle against the Apartheid state.. There is no denying Mandela's symbolic importance and what he accomplished after his release from prison however. Rock star good looks and a vague association with 'youthful rebellion' aren't positive contributions to world history or redeem in any way what Che did in life.



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09 Jun 2012, 5:14 am

Killing people is one of the best ways to solve your political problems.



AstroGeek
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09 Jun 2012, 8:17 am

Jacoby wrote:
AstroGeek wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am sure he is a hero to those who believe in his cause, and an inspiration to countless others.

While we're on the topic of left-wing ideologues, does anyone find it weird that these people's revolutionaries are so popular with people who preach "peace and love", but in artwork and photos, they are often seen carrying an AK-47?

People who like Che Guevera but who preach peace and love are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

I also figure that Che must be rolling in his grave at how t-shirts and posters with his picture on them are now mass produced and sold for a profit. And it just generally ticks me off that people buy these things without really understanding who Che was.


The real Che would likely have all of these bourgeois college marxists executed if he had his way.

I'm not saying I feel bad for Che. I just find it ironic. I really don't like how people have posters of him--they put up a picture of his face but clearly don't understand all of the horrible things that he did.



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09 Jun 2012, 8:57 am

Jacoby wrote:
I think Nelson Mandela's praise of people like Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Moumar Gaddafi says more about his own character and ideological beliefs than the people he spoke of. Nelson Mandela himself participated in militant activity and admits having committed 'human rights abuses' of his own in his younger days in the ANC's(which was considered a terrorist organization by the United States) armed struggle against the Apartheid state.. There is no denying Mandela's symbolic importance and what he accomplished after his release from prison however. Rock star good looks and a vague association with 'youthful rebellion' aren't positive contributions to world history or redeem in any way what Che did in life.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008 ... list_N.htm

Quote:
U.S. has Mandela on terrorist list
Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists and needs special permission to visit the USA. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calls the situation "embarrassing," and some members of Congress vow to fix it.
The requirement applies to former South African leader Mandela and other members of South Africa's governing African National Congress (ANC), the once-banned anti-Apartheid organization. In the 1970s and '80s, the ANC was officially designated a terrorist group by the country's ruling white minority. Other countries, including the United States, followed suit.

Because of this, Rice told a Senate committee recently, her department has to issue waivers for ANC members to travel to the USA.

"This is a country with which we now have excellent relations, South Africa, but it's frankly a rather embarrassing matter that I still have to waive in my own counterpart, the foreign minister of South Africa, not to mention the great leader Nelson Mandela," Rice said.

Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, is pushing a bill that would remove current and former ANC leaders from the watch lists. Supporters hope to get it passed before Mandela's 90th birthday July 18.

"What an indignity," Berman said. "The ANC set an important example: It successfully made the change from armed struggle to peace. We should celebrate the transformation."


You have Condaleeza Rice, President Bush's most important token employee, calling Nelson Mandela a "great leader."

Remember, too: Moumar Gaddafi was willing to support the ANC, at a time when the USA was turning its back on South Africa.



Last edited by ArrantPariah on 09 Jun 2012, 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

ArrantPariah
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09 Jun 2012, 9:15 am

AstroGeek wrote:
I'm not saying I feel bad for Che. I just find it ironic. I really don't like how people have posters of him--they put up a picture of his face but clearly don't understand all of the horrible things that he did.


This is what your government wants you to think. Congratulations.

It was his experiences in Guatemala, where he witnessed the US overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz, that convinced him once and for all that armed revolution was the only solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

Quote:
On July 7, 1953, Guevara set out again, this time to Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras and El Salvador. On December 10, 1953, before leaving for Guatemala, Guevara sent an update to his Aunt Beatriz from San José, Costa Rica. In the letter Guevara speaks of traversing through the "dominions" of the United Fruit Company, which convinced him "how terrible" the "Capitalist octopuses" were.....

Later that month, Guevara arrived in Guatemala where President Jacobo Árbenz Guzmán headed a democratically elected government that, through land reform and other initiatives, was attempting to end the latifundia system. To accomplish this, President Árbenz had enacted a major land reform program, where all uncultivated portions of large land holdings were to be expropriated and redistributed to landless peasants. The biggest land owner, and one most affected by the reforms, was the United Fruit Company, from which the Árbenz government had already taken more than 225,000 acres (910 km2) of uncultivated land. Pleased with the road the nation was heading down, Guevara decided to settle down in Guatemala so as to "perfect himself and accomplish whatever may be necessary in order to become a true revolutionary."

In Guatemala City, Guevara sought out Hilda Gadea Acosta, a Peruvian economist who was well-connected politically as a member of the left-leaning Alianza Popular Revolucionaria Americana (APRA, American Popular Revolutionary Alliance). She introduced Guevara to a number of high-level officials in the Arbenz government....

the U.S. CIA sponsored an army which invaded the country and installed the right-wing dictatorship of Carlos Castillo Armas. Guevara was eager to fight on behalf of Arbenz and joined an armed militia organized by the Communist Youth for that purpose, but frustrated with the group's inaction, he soon returned to medical duties. Following the coup, he again volunteered to fight, but soon after, Arbenz took refuge in the Mexican Embassy and told his foreign supporters to leave the country. Guevara’s repeated calls to resist were noted by supporters of the coup, and he was marked for murder. After Hilda Gadea was arrested, Guevara sought protection inside the Argentine consulate, where he remained until he received a safe-conduct pass some weeks later and made his way to Mexico....

The overthrow of the Arbenz regime cemented Guevara's view of the United States as an imperialist power that would oppose and attempt to destroy any government that sought to redress the socioeconomic inequality endemic to Latin America and other developing countries. In speaking about the coup Guevara stated:

Che Guevara wrote:
"The last Latin American revolutionary democracy – that of Jacobo Arbenz – failed as a result of the cold premeditated aggression carried out by the U.S.A. Its visible head was the Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, a man who, through a rare coincidence, was also a stockholder and attorney for the United Fruit Company."


Guevara's conviction that Marxism achieved through armed struggle and defended by an armed populace was the only way to rectify such conditions was thus strengthened. Gadea wrote later, "It was Guatemala which finally convinced him of the necessity for armed struggle and for taking the initiative against imperialism. By the time he left, he was sure of this."


The latifundia system was the feudal system introduced by the Spanish conquerors some centuries earlier, where a Spanish soldier would receive land, and the native Indians would be his serfs. The USA was staunchly opposed to bringing an end to feudalism. Even if it was a freely elected government that was doing it.

Prior to this, I don't think that Mr. Guevara executed anyone while he was on his road trip.



Last edited by ArrantPariah on 09 Jun 2012, 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kjas
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09 Jun 2012, 9:34 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
The latifundia system was the feudal introduced by the Spanish conquerors some centuries earlier, where a Spanish soldier would receive land, and the native Indians would be his serfs. The USA was staunchly opposed to bringing an end to feudalism. Even if it was a freely elected government that was doing it.

Prior to this, I don't think that Mr. Guevara executed anyone while he was on his road trip.


Yeaup. After Guatemala, he proceeded to Mexico was were he met Castro, among many other great names of the time. Mexico was were they started their training, previous to that Che had never been involved in armed struggle of any kind.

Castro was in Colombia when the assassination of Gaitán occurred (actually he interviewed him a couple of days before he was killed) 5 years earlier, which was what convinced him, in combination with his experiences back in his home country and finally, with the coup of Arbenz, solidified the idea that violent revolution was the only way.


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09 Jun 2012, 10:03 am

Moreover, I give Mr. Guevara credit for shaming America into passing the Civil Rights Act.

Without his courageous speech at the United Nations, black citizens probably still wouldn't be allowed to vote, to sit down in restaurants, and to stay in motels. There also wouldn't be any blacks living in my neighborhood.