How common are "welfare bums"?

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AspieRogue

25 Nov 2012, 9:19 am

Oodain wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

luckily over here that includes taking care of those that cant themselves, i really do think one can judge a society on how it treats the weakest members of it,

I believe helping the needy should be a voluntary and private act.

The government does not compel me to donate blood or platelets. I just do it. The government does not compel me to record books for blind and dyslexic folks. I just do it. Voluntary and private, the way good deeds ought to be done.

ruveyn

still doesnt change my actual point,

any society has a social contract that we as humans have to sacrifice something to be a part of, what we sacrifice differs from country to country but the common theme in the west is that you have a choice about which one you take part in, dont like it where you are and dont feel the political system would allow it to become somewhere you like, leave, simple.

and the fact that there is an implicit choice also means that it per definition isnt theft(if you disregard the blatant ignorance of law, theft is defined by the legal system, something that is done by law and in accordance with the criminal code cannot then be theft itself, it can be likened to it under some circumstances but cannot be it)

Exactly!

The definition of theft is ultimately derived from the legal(and social)meaning of belonging which is based on property rights. You have the *right* to own property, but you are entitled to an exemption from paying your taxes just because you don't think that helping those who are helpless isn't something you wanna do.

Last edited by AspieRogue on 25 Nov 2012, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adb
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25 Nov 2012, 9:51 am

Oodain wrote:

any society has a social contract that we as humans have to sacrifice something to be a part of, what we sacrifice differs from country to country but the common theme in the west is that you have a choice about which one you take part in, dont like it where you are and dont feel the political system would allow it to become somewhere you like, leave, simple.

Where is this social contract? Did we sign it? If I don't like it, where do I go where I don't have one of these so-called social contracts?

Your social contract is a group of people forcing their will (with guns) on society as a whole.

Quote:

and the fact that there is an implicit choice also means that it per definition isnt theft(if you disregard the blatant ignorance of law, theft is defined by the legal system, something that is done by law and in accordance with the criminal code cannot then be theft itself, it can be likened to it under some circumstances but cannot be it)

Theft is taking property away from someone against his or her will. Law provides legal standing for or against theft, but the definition of theft doesn't involve legality.

An extension of what you are saying is that slavery was right until it was made illegal. In your value system, the majority can rightfully exterminate a minority since they can make a law stating that it's right to do so.

adb
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25 Nov 2012, 9:56 am

AspieRogue wrote:

The definition of theft is ultimately derived from the legal(and social)meaning of belonging which is based on property rights. You have the *right* to own property, but you are entitled to an exemption from paying your taxes just because you don't think that helping those who are helpless isn't something you wanna do.

When you believe that rights are given to you by the government, you devalue yourself.

AspieRogue

25 Nov 2012, 10:31 am

adb wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

When you believe that rights are given to you by the government, you devalue yourself.

If there was no government, then only right is MIGHT. Other than that, rights are concepts invented by people and must be recognized by other people(and of course the government is made up of people)for them to have any meaning.

Regarding the "social contract", stop taking things so literally dude.

adb
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25 Nov 2012, 10:42 am

AspieRogue wrote:

Regarding the "social contract", stop taking things so literally dude.

If I'm expected to abide by a set of social rules or get thrown in prison otherwise, I think it's reasonable to be literal about it.

ruveyn
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25 Nov 2012, 11:10 am

AspieRogue wrote:

Regarding the "social contract", stop taking things so literally dude.

There is no social contract in the sense of Russeau. There are laws, which are enforced. There are actual contracts which are agreed to by identifiable parties, to provide identifiable values (goods. labor, legal rights etc) for specified value in return. There is no general non-specific social contract and there never was. It is a bogus concept used by would be tyrants to ensnare their intended victims.

When some one claims I am bound by "the social contract" I ask them on what date did I sign or make a binding pledge and what were the terms.

ruveyn

marshall
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25 Nov 2012, 1:19 pm

Jacoby wrote:

PM wrote:

The term "welfare bum" is frequently used by the right to refer to ANYONE that gets ANY form of government assistance and therefore causes their takes to increase ever so slightly. They say no one should be forced to be charitable, HA! they only take part in private charity as a tax shelter and there would be no charity period if there was no government assistance. Face it, the 1%, both left and right, don't give a crap about the poor man.

There is enough money floating around in the US to make everyone a millionaire, but that would be *GASP* socialism.

Make everyone a millionaire lol, do you not understand how economics work?

Neither do you.

marshall
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25 Nov 2012, 1:36 pm

adb wrote:

Oodain wrote:

If nobody was ever forced to do anything they didn't want to do there would be no society to begin with. Society requires balance to stay in equilibrium. Extreme individualism and the resulting inequality lead to social strife which actually makes society less prosperous and less safe. You also take for granted all kinds of things that benefit you which could not happen without a government forcing people to do some things for the greater good. It seems all you libertarians want to do is turn the clock back to times when due to high inequality, life was dismal, brutish, and short for the vast majority. You want to work 16 hours a day in a factory from the age of 10 to the day you die be my guest. I'll build you a time machine.

Last edited by marshall on 25 Nov 2012, 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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25 Nov 2012, 1:38 pm

marshall wrote:

If nobody was ever forced to do anything they didn't want to do there would be no society to begin with. Society requires balance to stay in equilibrium. .

Society requires laws, customs and protocols in order to operate.

ruveyn

AspieRogue

25 Nov 2012, 1:43 pm

adb wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

Regarding the "social contract", stop taking things so literally dude.

If I'm expected to abide by a set of social rules or get thrown in prison otherwise, I think it's reasonable to be literal about it.

Well it isn't a legal contract, but the tax dollars that the state requires you to pay are used for things that everyone, including, you yourself, make use of. If it weren't for the government we'd have no roads, no airports, no sewers, and no national defense force. You libertarians need to grow up or move to Somalia as your arguments are weak and full of false premises.

marshall
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25 Nov 2012, 1:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:

marshall wrote:

If nobody was ever forced to do anything they didn't want to do there would be no society to begin with. Society requires balance to stay in equilibrium. .

Society requires laws, customs and protocols in order to operate.

ruveyn

It also requires surplus recycling. Otherwise it plays out like a game of Monopoly, i.e. winner take all. Once the winners gain ownership of everything it gets more and more difficult for them to keep raking in profits off the backs of everyone else. After a while you can't get blood from a stone. This will eventually destabilize the entire economy. You too easily discount that if government had done absolutely nothing during the Great Depression people would have eventually turned violent. You too easily discount the power of the self-preservation instinct in the case of crisis.

MrXxx
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25 Nov 2012, 2:11 pm

marshall wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

marshall wrote:

If nobody was ever forced to do anything they didn't want to do there would be no society to begin with. Society requires balance to stay in equilibrium. .

Society requires laws, customs and protocols in order to operate.

ruveyn

You too easily discount the power of the self-preservation instinct in the case of crisis.

Actually, no he doesn't.

Take a look back a few pages ago at what he said about his last slice of bread. :lol:

Ever get that slice that's full of holes?

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adb
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25 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

AspieRogue wrote:

These things can exist without government. Private enterprise will build roads, airports, and sewers. I can see the argument for a national military, but I think it would be far less necessary if we spent less time interfering with other countries.

Quote:

You libertarians need to grow up or move to Somalia as your arguments are weak and full of false premises.

How is the argument weak? What are the false premises? Make your point, not childish statements.

marshall
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25 Nov 2012, 4:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Here is my question: How many people are seriously living on welfare that they don't need? I seriously don't know the answer.

Do you think it is kosher to compel those who have to give to those who don't purely on the basis of need?

What if some miserable git needs your last slice of bread?

ruveyn

AngelRho
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25 Nov 2012, 9:26 pm

I'm not so sure it's really that people are on welfare they don't need. Perhaps MOST welfare recipients actually do need benefits. The real problem is that MANY recipients don't see a problem with dependence on the government. They are perfectly content remaining dependent on the government. I don't have a problem with Santa Claus dropping in the off-season to help capable people get through a rough patch. It's when capable people start to expect Santa to drop by every month choose not to do anything in the meantime to help their situation.

AspieRogue

25 Nov 2012, 9:36 pm

adb wrote:

AspieRogue wrote:

These things can exist without government. Private enterprise will build roads, airports, and sewers.

Yeah, they will build roads and not bother to maintain them except in certain areas where there are enough rich people to pay excessively high fees since it's not profitable to maintain them sufficiently for the amount of use they get(ditto for sewers, gas pipelines, and emergency services). Once again, I urge you to inform yourself of what life is like where utilities and emergency services are privatized and see what it's like there. Deregulation of the airways(airlines in particular)resulted in numerous, devastating crashes in the 80s and 90s until Uncle Same finally put a stop to it after 9/11. Alaska Airlines flight 261 is a good example of what happens when airlines are allowed to do things their own way.

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