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AgentPalpatine
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27 Jan 2013, 12:31 pm

thomas81 wrote:

i agree that government is self serving, the problem with contemporary government is that it represents only a small elite which is why it ends up alienating the majority. Its therefore necessary to have government owned and run by the social majority rather than one that is elected by a electoral majority twice a decade. By definition it will serve the people.

How would this "Social Majority" be realized except through an election? I have issues with unitary combined legislative/executive government, particularly one with 100 percent turnover on a politically set date (ie, the UK House of Commons), but I'm not sure If that's what you're refering to.

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Tequila
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27 Jan 2013, 12:35 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:

How would this "Social Majority" be realized except through an election?

Don't go there.

I prefer a system of representative direct democracy.

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27 Jan 2013, 12:40 pm

Tequila wrote:

AgentPalpatine wrote:

How would this "Social Majority" be realized except through an election?

Don't go there.

I prefer a system of representative direct democracy.

I'd rather not get too far from OP's intents in this thread, but I think it does open up an issue. If a member of the voting public does'nt vote, presumably they have relinquished their social interest in that particular office for that particular time period. I don't think we want to go down the road of asking "Well, Tom down the street did'nt vote, but I'm sure he's for spending $50 Million more to drill down to Lake Volstock".

Do you mean "direct democracy" in the sense that the voters would have some sort of proposal power with enough signatures on a petition/website?

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27 Jan 2013, 12:44 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:

Do you mean "direct democracy" in the sense that the voters would have some sort of proposal power with enough signatures on a petition/website?

Yes. In the sense that we would have a federal UK, with county councils that also have the power to set their own rules. If a petition had enough signatures in a certain time period, it would become an initiative and be put to the people. The politicians would have to implement the will of the people (there would be obvious exceptions - for instance, some things wouldn't be allowed), and there could be federal and county initiatives.

Basically, I want power to be decentralised and given to ordinary people. The politicians should be mere functionaries mostly, and not major characters in their own right.

Who outside Switzerland knows or even cares that Ueli Maurer is the President of the Confederation?

thomas81
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27 Jan 2013, 12:55 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:

Is it true that Northern Ireland's lottery financed at least part of the filming of HBO's Game of Thrones and Boardwalk Empire?

I don't know what you mean. There is an Irish lottery and a UK lottery. Northern Ireland has no lottery of it's 'own'.

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Tequila
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27 Jan 2013, 12:57 pm

thomas81 wrote:

I don't know what you mean. There is an Irish lottery and a UK lottery. Northern Ireland has no lottery of it's 'own'.

Probably means the Northern Irish branch of the UK Big Lottery Fund, which is a fund that comes from part of the proceeds from the UK lottery.

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27 Jan 2013, 1:12 pm

Tequila wrote:

AgentPalpatine wrote:

Do you mean "direct democracy" in the sense that the voters would have some sort of proposal power with enough signatures on a petition/website?

Unfortunatelly, I've had to deal with mandates from California, and I don't live anywhere near them. Intiative is well meanning, but horrible in practice. How can you possible consider all of rules and legal issues flowing from one piece of legislation in a simple ballot question?

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I don't know what you mean. There is an Irish lottery and a UK lottery. Northern Ireland has no lottery of it's 'own'.

I believe the organization is called the "Northern Ireland Screen". I was under the impression that they drew funding from a lottery (not sure which one), but I thought I'd ask since we were discussing governments and decisions.

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27 Jan 2013, 1:12 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

I don't know what you mean. There is an Irish lottery and a UK lottery. Northern Ireland has no lottery of it's 'own'.

Probably means the Northern Irish branch of the UK Big Lottery Fund, which is a fund that comes from part of the proceeds from the UK lottery.

dont know what the big deal is. The Camelot fund goes to all good causes, including community projects and sports. The arts is just one arm of it.

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AgentPalpatine
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27 Jan 2013, 1:20 pm

thomas81 wrote:

I'm still trying to understand what the "Social Majority" concept represents.

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27 Jan 2013, 1:22 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:

I'm still trying to understand what the "Social Majority" concept represents.

the majority of society. Not sure why thats such a complicated term.

electoral democracy is a inherently flawed way of guaging majority consensus because it relies on 3 false premises

-that all people engage in the electoral process

-that there are participating parties which reflect the will of all people.

-that the elected party will not betray the promises on which they were elected.

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AgentPalpatine
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27 Jan 2013, 1:31 pm

thomas81 wrote:

the majority of society. Not sure why thats such a complicated term.

electoral democracy is a inherently flawed way of guaging majority consensus because it relies on 2 false premises

-that all people engage in the electoral process

-that there are participating parties which reflect the will of all people.

If people don't engage in the electroal process, then by default they've waived their social/legal right to select an office's holder for the statutory/constitutional period of time. I don't think we want to go down the road of deciding that "Person X won't like this, since he's 35, and lives in <insert random location>".

I'm not sure how canidates are selected in the UK, but in the united states, there are primaries* for all legislative and executive seats (judical in some states). People can vote for who they want in the primaries. In the US, parties don't have the legal right to make decisions**, the holder of an office in bound to make those decisions.

* Some states allow conventions to select canidates for some positions

** Most states allow parties to determine canidates for special elections if an officeholder takes another office, resigns, or dies.

Elections have consequences, and you can't allow some "majority of society" to make decisions when we have elections to fill the offices of those who make decisions. I support limited referendum rights, particularly for constitutional changes, but voters have to make decisions, and they have to take responsability for those actions.

ruveyn
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27 Jan 2013, 1:32 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

[youtube]removed by mod[/youtube]

Why can't our bankers use such colorful language?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Jayzus, Mary and Joseph! There is a lot of fookin' swearing going on.

I rather like that man. He speaks straight forwardly.

I would say to him, Aye, and Erin go Braug

ruveyn

Tequila
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27 Jan 2013, 1:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:

the majority of society. Not sure why thats such a complicated term.

So let's have an unelected system instead?

And who constitutes "the majority of society"? You'll probably end up with some sub-sections of society holding disproportionate force.

I think you'd be surprised at how conservative many people are.

And majoritarian rule is usually dangerous, because it's simply another word for tyranny of the majority.

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27 Jan 2013, 2:58 pm

Tequila wrote:

And majoritarian rule is usually dangerous, because it's simply another word for tyranny of the majority.

i can deduce from that you arent a democrat then, because of your fear of the majority.

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27 Jan 2013, 3:11 pm

/\
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

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simon_says
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27 Jan 2013, 3:16 pm

I think some of it is ginned up by fantasy prone people. We judge heroes by the quality of their enemies so naturally they want to exaggerate the evils of their imagined foe. In the movie running in their heads that makes them all the more heroic for being "anti-government".

The banality of evil is boring. A bought and paid for Congress and the ugliness of political deal making isnt really sufficient grist for Spartacus to lead a revolt.

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