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Should Barack Obama be impeached?
Yes 39%  39%  [ 24 ]
No 61%  61%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 61

ScrewyWabbit
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12 Jun 2013, 11:47 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:

If the American people are upset over government overreach in security matters, then the place they ought to look for the culprit is in the mirror. Since 9/11, Americans have been so chickenshit over the threat of terrorism that we have not only allowed our rights to be compromised for the sake of safety, we've insisted on it. The Genie is out of the bottle.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Exactly. Before 9/11 we were "Give me liberty, or give me death!". Now, we're "you can take my liberty if you just pretend to protect my life". What a sad state we are in as a people.



Kraichgauer
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12 Jun 2013, 11:53 am

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:

If the American people are upset over government overreach in security matters, then the place they ought to look for the culprit is in the mirror. Since 9/11, Americans have been so chickenshit over the threat of terrorism that we have not only allowed our rights to be compromised for the sake of safety, we've insisted on it. The Genie is out of the bottle.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Exactly. Before 9/11 we were "Give me liberty, or give me death!". Now, we're "you can take my liberty if you just pretend to protect my life". What a sad state we are in as a people.


Kinda reminds me of when the Vandal king in North Africa received a report on how his army had been defeated and fled before a Byzantine army. When he demanded to know how and why, the messenger responded with: "Because the Vandals have become cowards."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AspE
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12 Jun 2013, 3:06 pm

No, Obama shouldn't be impeached. None of the topics listed for the poll were actually illegal.

The NSA program is covered by warrants. Yes, they are rubber stamped and arguably should be scaled back, but they were approved by congress and not illegal.
The DOJ targeting of whistleblowers (and the AP) is likewise legal. We may not think it's right because the leakers are providing an important public service, also the gov classifies too many thing that probably shouldn't be classified, but they are breaking the law.
As far as Benghazi, there was no cover up. The false scandal is more about what the CIA said about the talking points than anything else.
The IRS targeting I don't believe was partisan in nature. Yes, the outcome seems partisan, but that's only because the Tea Party groups invited scrutiny themselves by their own names, which were obviously political. This, combined with the large increase in cases since Citizen's United, resulted in people taking inappropriate shortcuts. Anyway, Obama didn't order it, nor did it help him at all.
The DOJ gun running was part of a legitimate program to capture criminals. There was some incompetence at work there, but nothing Obama did was wrong.
The drone war is not illegal, it was approved by congress, and I approve. Yes, it might have been used initially without adequate restraint, but it has been highly successful in killing our enemies.



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12 Jun 2013, 4:13 pm

In a perfect world, Obama should be impeached. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world.
His rejection of a right to a trial (indefinite detention) destroys the bill of rights, something he was sworn in to defend.
Unfortunately,. his opposition (the Republicans) also do not believe in the bill of rights and they (at least the elite Republicans *, that do not listen to the average Republican's concerns) are far worse then Obama.
I'm 54. I have finally accepted the fact that one can only vote for the lesser of two evils.THAT IS THE WAY IT IS! Idealism without rationality is unrealistic fantasy. It's fun but makes things worse.
* that make all the policy decisions for "their" party.


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12 Jun 2013, 4:46 pm

The problem is that we are in a war, and broad war powers are given to the president. We are under no obligation to give prisoners of war a fair trial.



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12 Jun 2013, 5:25 pm

I am familiar with the war powers act. However, the patriot act (actually it should be called the unpatriotic act because it destroys the constitution ) applies to American citizens. The loss of habeus corpus (the right to a trial) destroys ALL our other rights.
OK. I will provisionally be conspiracy guy. Do you really think that the government is concerned about us non-elites being killed? Especially considering that less then 1% of us will be killed thru terrorist acts. Thats far far less then those that die from car accidents.
Now for real conspiracy guy stuff! :D I believe that the patriot act and its expansion under Obama is about controlling us when oil is used up and the consequences of global warming become more apparent. They know that when the s**t goes down the masses will feel vulnerable and finally revolt.


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12 Jun 2013, 5:36 pm

This issue makes life weird! I told my class that politics makes strange bed fellows. I hate Glen Beck and Limbaugh. The talking heads at MSN were all about how the NSA situation etc is insignificant. I have always sided with the MSN talking heads.
Now ( VERY Temporarily ) I say "right on Rush"!
PS: Limbaugh is the scum of the earth. A drug crazed hypocrite. Why does he hate America and everything it stands for?!


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Kraichgauer
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12 Jun 2013, 5:43 pm

AspE wrote:
No, Obama shouldn't be impeached. None of the topics listed for the poll were actually illegal.

The NSA program is covered by warrants. Yes, they are rubber stamped and arguably should be scaled back, but they were approved by congress and not illegal.
The DOJ targeting of whistleblowers (and the AP) is likewise legal. We may not think it's right because the leakers are providing an important public service, also the gov classifies too many thing that probably shouldn't be classified, but they are breaking the law.
As far as Benghazi, there was no cover up. The false scandal is more about what the CIA said about the talking points than anything else.
The IRS targeting I don't believe was partisan in nature. Yes, the outcome seems partisan, but that's only because the Tea Party groups invited scrutiny themselves by their own names, which were obviously political. This, combined with the large increase in cases since Citizen's United, resulted in people taking inappropriate shortcuts. Anyway, Obama didn't order it, nor did it help him at all.
The DOJ gun running was part of a legitimate program to capture criminals. There was some incompetence at work there, but nothing Obama did was wrong.
The drone war is not illegal, it was approved by congress, and I approve. Yes, it might have been used initially without adequate restraint, but it has been highly successful in killing our enemies.


I think I love you. :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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12 Jun 2013, 5:53 pm

Does legal=ethical?


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wittgenstein
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12 Jun 2013, 5:58 pm

I was not talking about the gun running "scandal " (silly accusations), the IRS "scandal" (silly accusations), Bengazi (silly accusations), I was talking about the removal of our right to a trial.


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seaturtleisland
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12 Jun 2013, 6:15 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
I was not talking about the gun running "scandal " (silly accusations), the IRS "scandal" (silly accusations), Bengazi (silly accusations), I was talking about the removal of our right to a trial.


But is that illegal? Is the law even considered unconstitutional? Is there a part in the Bill of Rights that says the rights granted by it can be subjected to reasonable limits? I know there's something like that in the Canadian constitution. I don't know as much about the U,S. but hearing about some of the laws that exist makes me wonder if there is something like that in the Bill of Rights that can justify a law that violates a person's constitutional rights.



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12 Jun 2013, 6:48 pm

The congress can over rule the constitution. However, they have not had the guts to be open and honest about their intentions.
If they voted to overturn the constitution, that would be legal and ironically constitutional. I would have a real problem with that because for me legal does not =ethical. I think the bill of rights should still exist.
So Obama's actions are legal but unethical. That is not a comfortable thought for me.


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12 Jun 2013, 8:05 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
The congress can over rule the constitution. However, they have not had the guts to be open and honest about their intentions.
If they voted to overturn the constitution, that would be legal and ironically constitutional. I would have a real problem with that because for me legal does not =ethical. I think the bill of rights should still exist.
So Obama's actions are legal but unethical. That is not a comfortable thought for me.


It is up to the appellate courts to decide what is constitutional and what is not. Congress may be able to pass any old law, but if a legal action is taken the courts can effectively nullify the law.

ruveyn



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13 Jun 2013, 1:26 am

They can make a constitutional ammendment.


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AspE
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13 Jun 2013, 2:02 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
I believe that the patriot act and its expansion under Obama is about controlling us when oil is used up and the consequences of global warming become more apparent. They know that when the s**t goes down the masses will feel vulnerable and finally revolt.

The thing is, when the oil runs out, one consequence will be the loss of central control. We won't have an electronic trail to follow because we won't have the internet, which requires a reliable electrical grid.



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14 Jun 2013, 5:36 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
Does legal=ethical?

US Constitution, Article II, Section 4 wrote:
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

I don't see anything in there about "ethics"...


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