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Why have Most Liberals Become What They Hate?

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AspE
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09 Oct 2013, 11:41 am

LKL wrote:
Are you completely unaware of the difference between the administration saying, 'We have killed thousands of innocent civilians with our drone strikes,' and 'we have killed less than 100 innocent civilians with our drone strikes'? Do you not understand the political significance of that?

Not to mention that more than one of them was an American citizen, tried, convicted, and executed entirely by the administrative branch without due process (i.e., completely unconstitutionally, in case you haven't read the BoR recently).

The politics is not my concern. And by the way, it's entirely constitutional to kill someone actively engaged in trying to kill Americans. The police can kill you in various circumstances without due process, same thing.



LKL
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09 Oct 2013, 1:34 pm

AspE wrote:
LKL wrote:
Are you completely unaware of the difference between the administration saying, 'We have killed thousands of innocent civilians with our drone strikes,' and 'we have killed less than 100 innocent civilians with our drone strikes'? Do you not understand the political significance of that?

Not to mention that more than one of them was an American citizen, tried, convicted, and executed entirely by the administrative branch without due process (i.e., completely unconstitutionally, in case you haven't read the BoR recently).

The politics is not my concern. And by the way, it's entirely constitutional to kill someone actively engaged in trying to kill Americans. The police can kill you in various circumstances without due process, same thing.

1)There weren't any Americans there at the time. The main American target was a gadfly, and his son was 16. Taken out in two separate strikes.
2)The police have to see not only the commission of a crime taking place, but the threat of danger to themselves or others, before they can shoot someone. They can't just decide, 'Joey Scarpazio looks like a gangster, so I'm going to go shoot him with a sniper rifle from a mile away.'
For gods' sakes, what would you be saying if Bush II had done this?



AspE
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09 Oct 2013, 3:39 pm

LKL wrote:
AspE wrote:
LKL wrote:
Are you completely unaware of the difference between the administration saying, 'We have killed thousands of innocent civilians with our drone strikes,' and 'we have killed less than 100 innocent civilians with our drone strikes'? Do you not understand the political significance of that?

Not to mention that more than one of them was an American citizen, tried, convicted, and executed entirely by the administrative branch without due process (i.e., completely unconstitutionally, in case you haven't read the BoR recently).

The politics is not my concern. And by the way, it's entirely constitutional to kill someone actively engaged in trying to kill Americans. The police can kill you in various circumstances without due process, same thing.

1)There weren't any Americans there at the time. The main American target was a gadfly, and his son was 16. Taken out in two separate strikes.
2)The police have to see not only the commission of a crime taking place, but the threat of danger to themselves or others, before they can shoot someone. They can't just decide, 'Joey Scarpazio looks like a gangster, so I'm going to go shoot him with a sniper rifle from a mile away.'
For gods' sakes, what would you be saying if Bush II had done this?

For God's sake, they are actively working to kill Americans regardless of whether there were any Americans present at the time!

If GWB did this I would think the same thing.


The legal aspect is covered by legislation:

Section 2 - Authorization For Use of United States Armed Forces

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoriza ... Terrorists



simon_says
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09 Oct 2013, 3:50 pm

We killed hundreds if not thousands of Americans in world war II who had gone to fight alongside the Nazis. No one cared beyond their families. Bush killed an American with a drone and I didnt care. I still don't care. If you associate with AQ and call for the death of Americans and live in a terrorist haven I don't care if you're on fire and screaming. I just don't.



zacb
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09 Oct 2013, 5:49 pm

simon_says wrote:
We killed hundreds if not thousands of Americans in world war II who had gone to fight alongside the Nazis. No one cared beyond their families. Bush killed an American with a drone and I didnt care. I still don't care. If you associate with AQ and call for the death of Americans and live in a terrorist haven I don't care if you're on fire and screaming. I just don't.


That still does not mean we should cast off due process and the rule of law.



AspE
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09 Oct 2013, 6:28 pm

zacb wrote:
simon_says wrote:
We killed hundreds if not thousands of Americans in world war II who had gone to fight alongside the Nazis. No one cared beyond their families. Bush killed an American with a drone and I didnt care. I still don't care. If you associate with AQ and call for the death of Americans and live in a terrorist haven I don't care if you're on fire and screaming. I just don't.


That still does not mean we should cast off due process and the rule of law.

Maybe we can have the drone missile play "you have the right to remain silent" before it explodes.



zacb
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09 Oct 2013, 6:42 pm

haha. No , maybe some of those drone operators should quit playing COD before they come to their job, and be a tad more careful who they kill.



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09 Oct 2013, 9:57 pm

AspE wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
AspE wrote:
LKL wrote:
dude, seriously? That's your argument? 'It's ok to lie about the civilian casualties, because at least we aren't nuking them'?


Who cares what we call them? Seriously that's your objection? They aren't innocent until proven guilty, it's a freaking war.

Who's war?

The war between the West and the Islamists.

1 in 4 people on the planet practice Islam,I doubt the majority are terrorists.


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LKL
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09 Oct 2013, 10:37 pm

Not to mention the fact that a lot of Westerners aren't too thrilled with the idea of a 'War with Islam' either.

'Conservative America' is not 'The West.'

Wrt. the Americans killed by drones:

They are alleged to have been working against the United States. They were never convicted in a court of law, nor were they on an active field of war. There was neither due process nor probable cause for any American in immediate danger.



AspE
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10 Oct 2013, 12:21 pm

Misslizard wrote:
1 in 4 people on the planet practice Islam,I doubt the majority are terrorists.

Not every Muslim is an Islamist.



AspE
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10 Oct 2013, 12:24 pm

LKL wrote:
Not to mention the fact that a lot of Westerners aren't too thrilled with the idea of a 'War with Islam' either.

'Conservative America' is not 'The West.'

Wrt. the Americans killed by drones:

They are alleged to have been working against the United States. They were never convicted in a court of law, nor were they on an active field of war. There was neither due process nor probable cause for any American in immediate danger.

Tough s**t, there is no due process in war. But there was certainly probable cause. The targets of drone strikes are not unknown to us. We know what they are doing, what they are involved in. They cannot be (easily) arrested in a foreign country. You may not be at war with militant Islam, but they are at war with you. At least until peak oil scales back our empire and the s**theads can take over.



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10 Oct 2013, 2:41 pm

AspE wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
1 in 4 people on the planet practice Islam,I doubt the majority are terrorists.

Not every Muslim is an Islamist.


That is true. But the non-Jihadists give the Jihadi safe haven.

I have yet to see "moderate" Muslims (if they exist) protest the outrages and extremities of the Jihadis.

The "moderate" Muslims are the sea in which the Jihadi sharks swim.

ruveyn



AspE
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10 Oct 2013, 3:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AspE wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
1 in 4 people on the planet practice Islam,I doubt the majority are terrorists.

Not every Muslim is an Islamist.


That is true. But the non-Jihadists give the Jihadi safe haven.

I have yet to see "moderate" Muslims (if they exist) protest the outrages and extremities of the Jihadis.

The "moderate" Muslims are the sea in which the Jihadi sharks swim.

ruveyn

Mostly true, but I saw one on The Daily Show the other day.



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11 Oct 2013, 12:19 am

AspE wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
1 in 4 people on the planet practice Islam,I doubt the majority are terrorists.

Not every Muslim is an Islamist.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... legal.html


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zacb
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11 Oct 2013, 7:30 am

AspE wrote:
LKL wrote:
Not to mention the fact that a lot of Westerners aren't too thrilled with the idea of a 'War with Islam' either.

'Conservative America' is not 'The West.'

Wrt. the Americans killed by drones:

They are alleged to have been working against the United States. They were never convicted in a court of law, nor were they on an active field of war. There was neither due process nor probable cause for any American in immediate danger.

Tough sh**, there is no due process in war. But there was certainly probable cause. The targets of drone strikes are not unknown to us. We know what they are doing, what they are involved in. They cannot be (easily) arrested in a foreign country. You may not be at war with militant Islam, but they are at war with you. At least until peak oil scales back our empire and the s**theads can take over.


So we destroy due process, so we can save due process and liberty. Brilliant :D . And to be honest, most wars we have been in could have been prevented.



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11 Oct 2013, 8:31 am

AspE wrote:
LKL wrote:
...
BS. Calling any male between the ages of 15 and 60, and located within 10 miles of a target, an "enemy combatant," is worse than cynical, it's on the level of NewSpeak out of 1984.
.


The constitution is not a suicide pact. If airstrikes are the only way to kill our enemies, then that's what we have to do. Let's not fool ourselves and pretend there is a wide variety of political opinion, debate, and dissent in these areas. Also, if we invade, which is the other option, we kill many, many more.


Oh great. So if I am by accident within an 10 miles distance of someone you want to kill, I become your enemy, that has to be killed by you?

I gotta say, when it comes to that point of view, I rather agree with the opinion of muslim civilists, that you and your military are invited to do an backside hygienic expectation on me.