The Israel Empire plan.
sonofghandi
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07 Aug 2014, 6:50 am
It's an important thing to recognize: most people don't want to fight. Most people have the sense not to be revolutionaries. The Irish peace was built on the IRA's recognition that continuing to fight would continue to be dreadfully expensive and for almost nothing. The same will have to happen before there can be a peace in Gaza: Hamas will have to be brought to heel by one side or the other. I hope very much that it's the Palestinian side, but I don't see how.
So in your eyes, the Royal Air Force should have leveled the homes of any suspected IRA members with their families inside and blown up any building that may have weapons in it? Maybe "accidentally" blowing up all the children of outspoken critics, and then saying that their neighbors deserve it because they shouldn't live near terrorists?
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The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2014, 6:54 am
It's an important thing to recognize: most people don't want to fight. Most people have the sense not to be revolutionaries. The Irish peace was built on the IRA's recognition that continuing to fight would continue to be dreadfully expensive and for almost nothing. The same will have to happen before there can be a peace in Gaza: Hamas will have to be brought to heel by one side or the other. I hope very much that it's the Palestinian side, but I don't see how.
So in your eyes, the Royal Air Force should have leveled the homes of any suspected IRA members with their families inside and blown up any building that may have weapons in it? Maybe "accidentally" blowing up all the children of outspoken critics, and then saying that their neighbors deserve it because they shouldn't live near terrorists?
Yes, they are poor bastards.
sonofghandi
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07 Aug 2014, 7:03 am
So long as the Palestinian state's de facto government has as one of its purposes "destroy Israel", yes, Israel will maintain solid defenses and do what it can to maintain a blockade. For reasons made abundantly clear during this campaign. Those tunnels and weapons caches weren't put there by tiny desert critters.
1. True that Hamas does not recognize Israel as a nation, but their primary goal at the moment is Palestinian independence, not the destruction of Israel.
2. Those starter agricultural businesses have all been destroyed by IDF. The last one in 2012. Apparently they were supporting Hamas.
3. The blockade balatantly violates Geneva convention, which Israel does even not bother to deny. And I do see this conflict as howing why they maintain a bloackade: isolation, starvation, and alienation.
4. Israel ceded Gaza in negotiations brokered by outside forces; it was not an Israeli idea.
5. They rarely let Palestinians in, and rarely let them out. They also have a strict policy of not letting them back in once they leave. Since a lot of people don't like giving up the property their families have lived on for generations or to just pick up and leave all their families and friends, maybe you can see their reluctance.
6. Israel does not permanently remove Israeli settlements in the West Bank (and definitely not at gunpoint). Why don't you check out some maps sometime of how much land Israel has seized and settled in the past 50 years and then tell me they don't want to eliminate Palestine?
7. They don't want to ethnically cleanse anyone, other than those within their borders. They would be perfectly ok with all of them just leaving (which I'm guessing is the primary reason that there are so many "incidents" where there will be an "inquiry" and then nothing is ever heard about it again.
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Last edited by sonofghandi on 07 Aug 2014, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
sonofghandi
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07 Aug 2014, 7:09 am
^This information is decades out of date.
And you think this was acceptable and even justified?
The West Bank has been doing it for a while (and still is), and the Gaza strip took it for quite some time before the extremists got enough support to become dangerous.
But I guess you don't accept Palestine as a country, so I guess they don't count in your eyes.
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The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2014, 7:53 am
Tarantella, yes, Arabs will always see Israel as an alien country that had stolen lands from Palestinians, a state which was created by terrorism and by Zealots based on a mythical book and by Britains who made false promises to the Arabs who fought along with allies against the Turks.
Even tho that most Arab countries have accepted the two states solutions in the last UN resolution, we will always view Israel as such; and this not a matter of antisemitism (and this term is pretty ridiculous to be applied on us, we are Semites, and fanaticism. The Jewish refugees who fled Europe lived in harmony with the Arabs before the israel state got exposed.
There had thousands of Armenian refugees fled from the turkish genocide to Lebanon, they have developed to an active community of traders, merchants and even rich businessmen, and they have always lived in harmony with the locals even way before they become full citizens. They are Christians, they are not Arabs, they are not even of Semitic people, they still talk their own language to this day, hell half of them still don't even talk Arabic fluently yet, they have their cuisines, traditions and strong ties with their mother country Armenia, they have an active market town where you see all groups including veiled women shopping there, same for the Kurds who are living among us now.
Why Armenians successfully merged (while retaining their identity) with the locals while the european jews failed? Simple, because Armenians never had a sinister intention, ie imposing a state within state. The Jewish immigration was the most welcomed in Lebanon among the Arab countries, the local jewish community was one of the oldest communities and later more non-Arab jews immigrated from Europe to take refugee, in the late 40s most Jews in Lebanon weren't originally locals, but for a good reason a paranoia got developed toward them when we've realized about Israel, because we were fully aware that Lebanon is part of their promised land.
When PLO attempted to make his own state, a lengthened war clashed with them, same is happening now with the Syrian groups on the borders.
In 1911, Jews from Italy, Greece, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt and Iran moved to Beirut, expanding the community there with more than 5,000 additional members. Articles 9 and 10 of the 1926 Constitution of Lebanon guaranteed the freedom of religion and provided each religious community, including the Jewish community, the right to manage its own civil matters, including education, and thus the Jewish community was constitutionally protected, a fact that did not apply to other Jewish communities in the region.[12] The Jewish community prospered under the French mandate and Greater Lebanon, exerting considerable influence throughout Lebanon and beyond. They allied themselves with Pierre Gemayel's Phalangist Party (a fascist right wing, Maronite group modelled after similar movements in Italy and Germany, and Franco's Phalangist movement in Spain.) and played an instrumental role in the establishment of Lebanon as an independent state.
During the Greater Lebanon period, two Jewish newspapers were founded, the Arabic language Al-Alam al-Israili (the Israelite World) and the French Le Commerce du Levant, an economic periodical which still publishes (though it is now owned by non-Jews).
The Jewish community of Beirut evolved in three distinct phases.[13] Until 1908, the Jewish population in Beirut grew by migration from the Syrian interior and from other Ottoman cities like Izmir, Salonica, Istanbul, and Baghdad. Commercial growth in the thriving port-city, consular protection, and relative safety and stability in Beirut all accounted for the Jewish migration. Thus, from a few hundred at the beginning of the 19th century, the Jewish community grew to 2,500 by the end of the century, and to 3,500 by the First World War. While the number of Jews grew considerably, the community remained largely unorganized. During this period, the community lacked some of the fundamental institutions such as communal statutes, elected council, welfare and taxation mechanisms. In this period, the most organized and well-known Jewish institution in the city was probably the private Tiferet Israel (The Glory of Israel) boarding-school founded by Zaki Cohen in 1874. The school attracted Jewish students from prosperous families like Shloush (Jaffa), Moyal (Jaffa), and Sassoon (Baghdad). Its founder, influenced by the Ottoman reforms and by local cultural trends, aspired to create a modern yet Jewish school. It offered both secular and strictly Jewish subjects as well as seven languages. It also offered commercial subjects. The school was closed at the beginning of the 20th century due to financial hardships
The Young Turk Revolution (1908) sparked the organization process. Within six years, the Beirut community created a general assembly, an elected twelve-member council, drafted communal statutes, appointed a chief rabbi, and appointed committees to administer taxation and education. The process involved tension and even conflicts within the community, but eventually, the community council established its rule and authority in the community. The chief rabbi received his salary from the community and was de facto under the council's authority.
With the establishment of Greater Lebanon (1920), the Jewish community of Beirut became part of a new political entity. The French mandate rulers adopted local political traditions of power-sharing and recognized the autonomy of the various religious communities. Thus, the Jewish community was one of Lebanon's sixteen communities and enjoyed a large measure of autonomy, more or less along the lines of the Ottoman millet system. During the third phase of its development, the community founded two major institutions: the Maghen Abraham Synagogue (1926), and the renewed Talmud-Torah Selim Tarrab community school (1927). The community also maintained welfare services like the Biqur-Holim, Ozer-Dalim, and Mattan-Basseter societies. The funding for all these institutions came from contributions of able community members, who contributed on Jewish holidays and celebrations, through subscription of prominent members, fund-raising events and lotteries the community organized. In fact, the community was financially independent and did not rely on European Jewish philanthropy.
The development of the Jewish yishuv in Palestine influenced the Jewish leadership, who usually showed sympathy and active support for Zionism. Interestingly, the Jewish leadership in Beirut during this time aligned itself ideologically with the American-Based B'nai B'rith organization through its local proxy (Arzei Ha-Levanon Lodge) which was staffed by local community leaders. The B'nai B'rith lodge in Beirut attracted the social and economic elite. It embarked on community progress and revival through social activism, Jewish solidarity, and philanthropic values. Unlike the Alliance, who mainly aspired to empower the Jewish individual through modern education, the B'nai B'rith strove to empower both the individual and the community as a whole. In Beirut, unlike other Jewish communities, most of the community council members were also B'nai B'rith members, hence there existed an overlap between the council and the lodge. Of course, the Alliance school was popular in the community as it focused on French and prepared students for higher education. Since there was no Jewish high school in Beirut, many Jewish students attended foreign (Christian) schools, either secular or religious. The Jewish community was one of the smaller communities in the country, and hence it was not entitled for a guaranteed representation in the Parliament. Being excluded from Lebanese political life, the Jewish leadership aspired to improve the community's public standing by consolidating and improving the community as a whole. Overall, the French mandate period was characterized by growth, development, and stability.
In the 20th century, the Jewish community in Lebanon showed little involvement or interest in politics. They were generally traditional as opposed to religious and were not involved in the feuds of the larger religious groups in the country. Broadly speaking, they tended to support Lebanese nationalism and felt an affinity toward France. French authorities at the time discouraged expressions of Zionism (which they saw as a tool of their British rival), and the community was mostly apathetic to it. A few community leaders, such as Joseph Farhi, fervently supported the Zionist cause, and there was a level of support for the concept of a Jewish state in Palestine. The Jews in Lebanon had good contacts with those in Palestine, and there were regular visits between Beirut and Jerusalem. Accounts by the Alliance Israélite Universelle, which established schools that most Jewish children in the country attended, spoke of active Zionism while the Jewish Agency lamented the lack of national sentiment. The World Zionist Organization was also disappointed with the lack of more active support, and the community did not send a delegation to the World Zionist Congress.
A young Lebanese Jew named Joseph Azar, who took it upon himself to advance the Zionist cause with other individuals in October 1930, said in a report for the Jewish Agency that: "Before the disturbance of August 1929 the Jews...of Lebanon manifested much sympathy for the Zionist cause and worked actively for the sake of Palestine. They had established associations which collected money for (sic) Keren Kayemeth and (sic) Keren Heyesod." He said that after 1929, the Jews "started to fear from (sic) anything having any connection with Zionism and ceased to hold meetings and collect money." He also said that the Jewish Communal Council in Beirut "endeavored to prevent anything having a Jewish national aspect because they feared that this might wound the feelings of the Muslims." Other sources suggested that such charity work was not so much motivated by Zionism as it was by an interest to help Jews in need.
The Maccabi organization was recognized officially by Lebanese authorities and was an active center for Jewish cultural affairs in Beirut and Saida. The Maccabi taught Hebrew language and Jewish history, and was the focus point of the small Zionist movement in the country. There was also a pro-Zionist element within the Maronite community in Lebanon.
After the 1929 riots in Jerusalem, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was expelled from Palestine and he chose to settle in Lebanon, where continued inflammatory rhetoric against the British and the Zionists. During the riots, some Muslim nationalists and editors of a major Greek-Orthodox newspaper (both of whom saw the fate of the emerging Lebanese state as one within a broader Arab context) sought to incite the disturbances in Lebanon, where until that point most ethno-religious groups were aloof to the forecoming conflict in Palestine. It also seemed to have an effect on the cryptic response given by Interior Minister Habib Abi Chahla to Joseph Farhi when, on behalf of the Jewish community, he requested that they receive a seat in the newly expanded Lebanese Parliament.
Outside of Beirut, the attitudes toward Jews were usually more hostile. In November 1945, fourteen Jews were killed in anti-Jewish riots in Tripoli. Further anti-Jewish events occurred in 1948 following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The ongoing insecurity combined with the greater opportunities that Beirut offered prompted most of the remaining Jews of Tripoli to relocate to Beirut.[14]
All this show that the Jewish community (which most of their members came recently and not originally locals) in Lebanon were cooking for something questionable, to whom their real loyalty were? They had worrisome elites and worrisome groups overall, their connection to Zionism was pretty threatening and worrisome. No wonder why they have have failed to be merged in Lebanon while Armenians and Kurds did.
07 Aug 2014, 9:00 am
All very nice Boo; thank you.
What I can't seem to get past is all of those suicide bombings. You know what I mean: It was when a Mulim man or woman straps explosives to their body and walks into a (for example) coffee shop full of innocent men, women and children and kills and cripples as many as possible. Hundreds killed and thousands crippled. For years and years.
Afer Israel stopped the entry of explosives by harsher & harsher methods the attacks slowed and Muslim terrorists now use other methods.
Just explain to me the justification for the Muslim slaughter of innocents noted above and give me solid proof it will not happen again if blockades are lifted.
But I believe angry Muslims will follow the same path as before and would not trust them at all under the situation existing now. What possible assurances could be given that would be acceptable???
The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2014, 9:41 am
There's no justification for it but, again, it is not the root of the problem; the old conflict didn't start because of suicide bombings.
Suicide bombing is a part of an entirely different problem, even tho often used as a reaction; it's happening against Arab civilians, more than 10 suicide bombings happened in Lebanon since last year mostly by ISIS and their allies as a revenge against Hezbolla's involvement in Syria, hell they're even happening in Saudi Arabia, now of course this a problem for Israelis too.
ISIS is a far greater threat today than Israel or Hamas (consider both povs); very poor international (and Arab states included) reaction regarding isis.
However, voting against Palestine state is not what would protect you from those attacks, on the contrary you would just attract them, bravo, very smart of you.
07 Aug 2014, 10:21 am
Boo, if your argument is with the fact of Israel's existence, as well as with its existence as a Jewish state, then there is nowhere to go but bombs. And that is an argument not 65 years old but thousands of years old.
I do see now though what your local expansionist paranoia is about, though. The reason it looks so bizarre to me is that this sort of thinking might have been somewhat reasonable in 1910, but isn't today, and that's because of changes in what Judaism is, also because actual borders now exist (borders, incidentally, that the Israeli state has -- with the exception of sometimes looking the other way, stupidly, in the West Bank -- been quite respectful of. The '67 expansion was the result of a war and a warning -- but Israel gave it back, and really, who does this? Nations do not give territory back). In 1910 there were traditional Jews but it was damn near impossible to be a genuinely secular Jew, an areligious Jew, and to live in the area voluntarily as a Jew you likely ad either a family reason or a religious reason. But in the 30s, 40s...Israel was born of European Jew-hatred and European communism, though the communism's harder and harder to see. You're talking about an increasingly secular, often frankly atheist people. It's not a straight comparison but it's also the case in the US most Jews are certainly not fundamentalist, orthodox; by our own polling a quarter of us are atheist/agnostic. (Despite going to synagogue etc., which is hard for the Christians to understand.)
Am I saying it can never happen? No. That's true of any small country as well as any imperially ambitious country. A country starts bursting at the seams, it tries to grab land if it can and it will use any story to do it. A country decides it's superior to all around and should by right rule all around, it tries to grab. I do not see either of these anywhere on the horizon with Israel. To make it happen, there'd have to be pogroms in New York, because I don't know where the hell Israel would put another couple million Jews. (Although I was just in NYC, and they've put about another 1.4 million people in there since I was in college, and they fit all right. Crowded, but okay.) That or there'd have to be a complete takeover by the religiously insane, and if that ever happens, Israel will be gone fast. The religious nuts would be easy pickings because (a) American Jews would abandon them; (b) I cannot imagine this as an army.
I'll post before my browser disappears and then finish up.
07 Aug 2014, 10:24 am
To be fair, if you look at the history of how Jews have been treated in history by pretty much everyone, can you blame them for having a sect that seeks to ensure the Jewish people are so powerful that the injustices forced on them never happen again?
The problem with this is is its based on ancient, antiquated theology that has no bearing to contemporary geo-politics. The fact of the matter is, Jews are now safer in the west than they are in Israel and the only way that they can secure this 'Zion' of theirs is by pushing out any arabs that are an inconvenience.
Tell it to the French Jews.
sonofghandi
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07 Aug 2014, 10:25 am
I believe the current plan is the West Bank.
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07 Aug 2014, 10:33 am
Oh, I'd missed your thing about merging, Boo. No, Jews don't, as a group, merge. Not anywhere. Not because of a secret agenda for world domination, but because they're Jews.
It's funny...where I am, there's this desperate Protestant ecumenism that wants so badly to smooth every bump, and believe that all are the same, and they try very hard to assimilate everyone, or to believe them assimilated. It's like they can't allow themselves to believe it isn't going to happen and that this is also a liveable situation.
07 Aug 2014, 10:36 am
It's an important thing to recognize: most people don't want to fight. Most people have the sense not to be revolutionaries. The Irish peace was built on the IRA's recognition that continuing to fight would continue to be dreadfully expensive and for almost nothing. The same will have to happen before there can be a peace in Gaza: Hamas will have to be brought to heel by one side or the other. I hope very much that it's the Palestinian side, but I don't see how.
So in your eyes, the Royal Air Force should have leveled the homes of any suspected IRA members with their families inside and blown up any building that may have weapons in it? Maybe "accidentally" blowing up all the children of outspoken critics, and then saying that their neighbors deserve it because they shouldn't live near terrorists?
Way to miss the point entirely (and had IRA been anything like as effective as Hamas, you can be sure that that's exactly what would have happened, and that any Belfast to visit would be entirely spandy-new at this point. I remember the bombs in London quite well and can tell you that it was a miserably incompetent guerrilla force at a distance from home, not even Cubs-level).
No, I am saying that eventually some within IRA came to their senses, and that I am hoping but not hopeful that some in Hamas will do the same.
The_Face_of_Boo
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07 Aug 2014, 10:38 am
It's funny...where I am, there's this desperate Protestant ecumenism that wants so badly to smooth every bump, and believe that all are the same, and they try very hard to assimilate everyone, or to believe them assimilated. It's like they can't allow themselves to believe it isn't going to happen and that this is also a liveable situation.
Maybe merge wasn't the right word, by merge I meant living in harmony, the Armenians/Kurds example I gave above clearly states what I meant, they weren't culturally assimilated at all nor their indentity was changed, the Armenians/Kurds in Lebanon are still Armenian/Kurds culturally but unlike the Jews they don't believe in some God who promised them some land that includes Lebanon nor some divine agenda nor they are planning to form terrorist militias (ie. Haganah, Lehi...etc) to expel locals....are you getting my hints?
Some of the biggest real estate founders in Lebanon are Armenians btw http://www.sayfco.com/about.asp and there wasn't the slightest concern about them, just to show the magnitude the Armenian community has reached here.
The problem wasn't in not merging or retaining identity, but it was in their questionable zionist agenda, they were being constantly encouraged by Zionist organizations to be more active for the Israel cause. Read all the part of the wiki that I've posted about the Jews in Lebanon.
thomas81
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07 Aug 2014, 11:49 am
Bin Laden said exactly the same thing against the American population for electing Bush in the context of 9/11.
thomas81
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07 Aug 2014, 11:53 am
Way to miss the point entirely (and had IRA been anything like as effective as Hamas, you can be sure that that's exactly what would have happened, and that any Belfast to visit would be entirely spandy-new at this point. I remember the bombs in London quite well and can tell you that it was a miserably incompetent guerrilla force at a distance from home, not even Cubs-level).
Uh, the IRA came pretty damn close to killing the Prime minister in 1984. You can be sure that if Hamas made an equivalent attack then Israel's 'proportionate response' would be outright genocide.
