VEEP Debate--Who Won?

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It's a complicated decision that few make rashly. Women agonize over whether or not to do it for ages, exactly because of this. Providing them that choice is what Roe v. Wade was about.


But by denying her the ability to make decisions over where and when she can get pregnant, she's encumbered by a biological reality that men are not, regardless of the intent behind it. Her life is dramatically impacted for 9 months, and usually put on hold for over a decade afterwards to take care of the child. I believe she should be able to do that when she's ready and not be forced to a moment sooner.


But again, they have that ability now. They'd just usually have to choose an older child, who are usually passed over in our overcrowded adoption system.


Instead of them settling for an older kid, meaning even more of them go without homes than do today, further overcrowding things and leading to more children being shoved from foster home to foster home. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Bold statements I must say but I disagree with what you saying because what you are essentially pointing out is that the life of the child in this instance is just completely invalid. I think every human being can relate to the discussion on abortion one way or another because in the past we were all babies in a womb. We must think back to that occasion would you like the idea of being aborted and having your whole life taken away from you? I certainly I think not since that would have gotten rid of my perhaps one chance to exist. Life to many people has been something they have enjoyed and we must think to ourselves is it right to take that away?

Abortion is essentially a crime which takes away a human's life without any form of consent.

and you keep saying that the mother's life is worth LESS than the fetus.

You will never have to consider carrying a child for 9 months in your body and growing it on your own tissues, so you don't get to choose which pregnancies are carried to term and which are not. You can't make a choice of what someone else does with their body--you can't force a woman who catches pregnant to carry that clump of cells to term and allow it to rip itself out of her body (yeah, there are usually tears) after 9 months of increasing discomfort. You just have no right to tell someone else they have to endure that. I like sex but I don't ever want kids--there is no reason I should have to forgo sex for my entire reproductive life to avoid pregnancy that I don't want. You can't make those choices about my body, only I can. This is why abortion is legal and has to stay that way--my body, my choice. When men have the capacity to carry fetuses to term, then they get to have input on the laws surrounding pregnancy and abortion. Until then, no one cares that you are misinformed about abortion and disagree with it. Your opinion on choices you can't possibly ever have to make yourself (because they involve the bodies of others, not your own body) is totally irrelevant to the discussion of the legality of abortion.

I thought Pence performed as if he were composed of sparkling glass or a freshly mowed lawn, assured and silky but what he said didn't impress me, largely denying or ignoring anything of importance, TK was pointing a lot out that was merely standing in their yard already, he performed like a smarmy little kid delivering constant interruptions and whining exclamations though, Pence did show that he is an ice cold slab of reason and durability next to the cartoonesque assumption that people buy into of what Trump might turn into... Trump is playing the game a lot smarter than people think, Clinton has a dodgy track record herself and seems to be fed innumerable scripts on every little thing... TK impressed me more because of what he said, Pence didn't really hit him too hard so that'll be interesting next time.

I think this is a good point to end this argument here. It has after all been going on for well over a week and I kind of get the feeling that it could become quite heated. However I would like to say thanks to Androbot, wilburforce and Pravda for offering your perspectives and insights on the topic and thanks to you, Auntblubby for you taking every chance to bomb and bust my arguments. I feel as I don't want to keep this going as it is getting a little repetitive and debating such a sensitive topic may not be the best idea.

No screw what I just said. I am getting back into this!

@Pravda: Well the fact that a woman has long contemplated her decision does not mean that afterwards she will end up feeling as though she has made the right choice. For instance outside an abortion clinic in Auckland where I live you often see many women crying over the decisions they have made. You could say that a woman who has long contemplated her decision will end up making the right decision for her, but do keep in mind she will have not known the pain over having had an abortion until it strikes her after the procedure is done.


Well tell me why are those nine months worth the death of a baby. I am not against woman's rights but I am saying that when you have life on the line things are different.

Your point on foster children I find to be valid but their are ways to solve this other than simply allowing abortions. Maybe we should have an adoption service that is more that accepts more couples wanting to have children.

But their are couples who don't want to raise older children but want babies. Is it not worth saving lives that could otherwise be aborted if these children can be provided for?

@Wilburforce: Correct I can never comprehend the pain of woman when she is pregnant but I am allowed to have an opinion that temporary pain is not a great enough reason to end human life. Women have been pregnant since the beginning of time when they have children it has not destroyed their livelihoods. What's more or less women should not be the only voice in the debate around abortion. We have all been babies in the womb at one point in our life. Why should we have our one opportunity life simply being taken away from us in the womb?

In recent years their has been a heated debate over whether a fetus feels pain during the process. If a human being is harmed during the process of abortion that tell me what still justifies a woman being the only voice?

@Auntblabby: No my argument is what I have said hundreds of times. Being pro life is the belief that a woman's temporary pain is not a great enough reason to end the life of a baby. When you have a woman's life threatened by pregnancy the ethics of abortion change and that action may be undertaken justly.

again, from having witnessed and staffed countless ob/gyn procedures, I can tell you that just about EVERY pregnancy is fraught with often lethal hazards, some of which can't always be predicted. you seem to be saying that compared to the fetus, the woman is strictly of secondary concern if that. to borrow from another movement, ALL LIVES MATTER INCLUDING THE MOTHERS!! the fetus is NOT the only concern here. if you yourself could get pregnant then maybe your opinion might carry more weight as long as it concerns only you and YOUR baby. until then you are just designing to lord it over women.

Study: 'Overwhelming Majority' of Women Don't Regret Their Abortions

Here is another study from the university of Colorado.

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/s ... /cost.html

I am not going to say it is 100% factual but you can't simply spread out some stat posted a blogger and treat it as absolute fact. My mother for one knows women who have regretted the decision.

The article I linked is about a study, published in the science journal PLOS One--it's not "some stat posted a blogger". The study is linked in the article but I can link it here if you care to actually look at the source of the article you are deriding: Decision Rightness and Emotional Responses to Abortion in the United States: A Longitudinal Study

It shows a large majority of the over 600 American women who sought abortions in 2008-2010 from 30 different facilities across the US feel up to 3 years later that they made the right decision to abort. The few who reported more negative emotional responses after getting abortions were women who didn't have healthy support systems and felt judged and shamed by their families and communities. Your story about your mother knowing people is called anecdotal evidence and means basically squat. There is good evidence that a large majority of women who seek to get this procedure feel it was the right choice. As a person who has had a pregnancy scare while knowing my whole life that I don't want kids, this does not at all surprise me and is intuitive. It's not your choice to make as a man, and you need to just deal with that. We women are the ones whose bodies have to be the host for new life; so it's up to us whether to go through with that dangerous and life-altering process or not, it is our womb, our body, our choice to make, not yours. Deal with it.

It is your body 100% but when you carry human life things change you have a responsibility to care for it not terminate it merely. Sure their are circumstances where the procedure of abortion is good like when their is rape or a woman's life is threatened but for many cases the answer may have to be no. Remember that should you have an abortion some results from it may be that a woman is more likely to suffer from a miscarriage later on in life suffer numerous health problems. If we allow abortion to take place remember we are exposing countless women to these risks. Just think to yourself is it really worth it?

You say that because your a woman you can talk about all of this and the way women will be feeling. Well consider this, if you yourself have never had an abortion let alone have a pregnancy how can you explain what it is like?
I don't mean to personalize their but you can't simply tell to me I am unqualified to state an opinion when you yourself have never gone these trials your entire life. And yet you act as though you can speak for what these women go through, but can you?

Now you quoted a study on 95% of people with abortions not regretting their decision. Well consider this. 68% of eligible women refused to participate in this. I think that this gets rid of a large number of people since those most ashamed of having an abortion may have withdrawn not seeking to expose themselves or be reminded of their unpleasant experience. Whilst those more confident and proud of the decision they made may have felt more willing to tell their stories.

Not just that but although people may not regret the decision for abortion after it has been taken. Much more suffer from stress in the aftermath the same way numerous women have postpartum depression. When we allow abortion we are exposing women to all of this.

Last edited by Shahunshah on 16 Oct 2016, 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

The horrors? No inflammatory language there.

Sorry, I guess unpleasant experience would have suited better. Though I can't say how exactly a woman would feel from this procedure for many who regret it which is what I am referring to it may have been a horrible experience.

Thanks for pointing that out and I shall correct my mistake.

Lastly I don't know about you look but I am really liking this argument even if I am just playing Devil's advocate. It is forcing me to consider multiple perspectives on a very sensitive topic and many of you especially, Auntblabby have ended up highlighting issues that I previously did not know much about. I think I will keep this up as a good learning experience and I apologies if I have offended anyone passionate on this issue.

There is no evidence that abortions create health problems or reproductive problems for women--ask any OBGYN and they will tell you. You are spewing anti-choice propaganda that is not based in scientific evidence. You are ideologically driven and ignoring factual evidence that doesn't fit your idea that abortion is somehow morally evil because you don't understand how pregnancy works or how a woman's body works. You are misinformed and wilfully ignorant and I'm done arguing with a wall of ignorance. You will never have the power to decide whether I have to maintain a pregnancy or not though, so I'm glad for that. Ignorance like that which you possess about women's bodies and pregnancy is dying out, and the laws of most reasonable countries reflect that now, whether you like it or not. Abortion laws will never be repealed as long as women have access to the vote, so you can argue with misinformation all you like until you are blue in the face and it will accomplish nothing and change nothing. We are never giving our rights to autonomy and our body's back, no matter how much you howl into the abyss about how wrong you think abortion is as a man who will never have to have one.