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A lesson for the left/'liberals'

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Kraichgauer
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25 Nov 2016, 8:50 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
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You realise that lots of people against Israel and/or Israel's actions, are Jews?


I don't think they're so much against Israel (save for a few ultra-orthodox fanatics), just that they're against certain policies of the Israeli government.


It's the fanatics that support Israel. The groups against it rightly say that the Jews aren't meant to have a homeland. Zionism was founded by an atheist.


The impetus for the founding if Israel had arisen from the onslaught of Antisemitism Jews had to face for being the eternal outsider. It was in the wake of the Holocaust that made the rest of the world realize that perhaps Zionists were right in wanting a homeland. If Jews didn't have to face a literal existential threat, maybe there wouldn't be a need for a Jewish homeland, but they have, so there is, regardless if they had an atheist founder or not.


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27 Nov 2016, 3:33 pm

Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


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27 Nov 2016, 4:20 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.

If they cleansed the population then they didn't do a very good job at it - there are far more non-Jews in Israel now than there were in the whole Israel/Palestine territory in 1930 or 1949.

1.69m Arabs in Israel today, compared to about 1.2m in all of British Palestine in 1948. There's another 4.55m in Palestine. This period of ethnic cleansing saw the population increase in Israel and quintupled across the whole territory.



Kraichgauer
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27 Nov 2016, 5:17 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


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27 Nov 2016, 7:40 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


The state of Israel exists in 2016 in the context of "realpolitik" in that moral or historical injustices don't provide reasoning for the removal for either the state of Israel or it's Jewish population which is what HAMAS (and therefore the Palestinians) want. Using the argument of "returning land" or removing Jewish settlers would provide a legal justification for the return of Australia and the USA to it's indigenous inhabitants which for practical reasons can't happen. The State of Israel was created with the support of the British empire which (ironically) also includes Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait. Nobody questions the territorial rights of the corrupt royal families in these countries to exist...

What HAMAS and the Palestinians are fighting for is reverse genocide against the Jewish population



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27 Nov 2016, 10:41 pm

After WW2 and the holocaust, giving Israel to the Jews as a place of thier own was about the only thing they could do.


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27 Nov 2016, 10:54 pm

That was a product of WWI I believe. The fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians started in the early 1920's, the politics of 1930's and 1940's Europe sent an increased influx of European Jews to Israel. The reason why they became a state in 1948 rather than 1920 is because they were a British colony/commonwealth until Menachem Begin drove them out.


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Kraichgauer
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27 Nov 2016, 11:43 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That was a product of WWI I believe. The fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians started in the early 1920's, the politics of 1930's and 1940's Europe sent an increased influx of European Jews to Israel. The reason why they became a state in 1948 rather than 1920 is because they were a British colony/commonwealth until Menachem Begin drove them out.


But it was the millions of people either fleeing, or having survived, attempted genocide of the Nazi era, that gave the founding of Israel a moral foundation.


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28 Nov 2016, 6:37 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.

If they cleansed the population then they didn't do a very good job at it - there are far more non-Jews in Israel now than there were in the whole Israel/Palestine territory in 1930 or 1949.

1.69m Arabs in Israel today, compared to about 1.2m in all of British Palestine in 1948. There's another 4.55m in Palestine. This period of ethnic cleansing saw the population increase in Israel and quintupled across the whole territory.


They forced around 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes and villages, murderer, raped and plundered. I'd say they did a good job of cleansing. Ethnic cleansing doesn't just mean to kill people, you realise that?


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28 Nov 2016, 6:40 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


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28 Nov 2016, 6:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


The state of Israel exists in 2016 in the context of "realpolitik" in that moral or historical injustices don't provide reasoning for the removal for either the state of Israel or it's Jewish population which is what HAMAS (and therefore the Palestinians) want. Using the argument of "returning land" or removing Jewish settlers would provide a legal justification for the return of Australia and the USA to it's indigenous inhabitants which for practical reasons can't happen. The State of Israel was created with the support of the British empire which (ironically) also includes Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait. Nobody questions the territorial rights of the corrupt royal families in these countries to exist...

What HAMAS and the Palestinians are fighting for is reverse genocide against the Jewish population


Actually. Hamas agreed to settle the conflict in 2014, by agreeing to form a coalition government with the PA, and agreed to the terms set out by the EU and US which in turn meant that Hamas agreed to all former treaties and such, including Oslo. This sent Netanyahu over the edge and he waited for a pretext to go into Gaza and "mow the lawn". Please stop spouting Israeli propaganda, it's embarrassing. Lol. It isn't Israel's land to return, it's occupied Palestinian territory. Israel's theft was done after the formation of the UN, not hundreds of years ago. Um, didn't we just bomb the crap out of Iraq twice in the last couple of decades?

What the hell are you on about?


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JohnPowell
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28 Nov 2016, 6:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That was a product of WWI I believe. The fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians started in the early 1920's, the politics of 1930's and 1940's Europe sent an increased influx of European Jews to Israel. The reason why they became a state in 1948 rather than 1920 is because they were a British colony/commonwealth until Menachem Begin drove them out.


But it was the millions of people either fleeing, or having survived, attempted genocide of the Nazi era, that gave the founding of Israel a moral foundation.


Plenty of German Jews went to Palestine in the 30's via the Haavara Agreement, which was a deal between the Nazis and Zionists. Zionists used Jewish people as a blackmail tool.


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28 Nov 2016, 6:54 pm

Also, I don't understand why Americans would be such strong supporters of Israel, when Israel bombed a US intelligence ship for 3 hours and also had planned to attack Brits and Americans in 1956 and blame it on Egypt to spark conflict.


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28 Nov 2016, 8:35 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


The state of Israel exists in 2016 in the context of "realpolitik" in that moral or historical injustices don't provide reasoning for the removal for either the state of Israel or it's Jewish population which is what HAMAS (and therefore the Palestinians) want. Using the argument of "returning land" or removing Jewish settlers would provide a legal justification for the return of Australia and the USA to it's indigenous inhabitants which for practical reasons can't happen. The State of Israel was created with the support of the British empire which (ironically) also includes Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait. Nobody questions the territorial rights of the corrupt royal families in these countries to exist...

What HAMAS and the Palestinians are fighting for is reverse genocide against the Jewish population


Actually. Hamas agreed to settle the conflict in 2014, by agreeing to form a coalition government with the PA, and agreed to the terms set out by the EU and US which in turn meant that Hamas agreed to all former treaties and such, including Oslo. This sent Netanyahu over the edge and he waited for a pretext to go into Gaza and "mow the lawn". Please stop spouting Israeli propaganda, it's embarrassing. Lol. It isn't Israel's land to return, it's occupied Palestinian territory. Israel's theft was done after the formation of the UN, not hundreds of years ago. Um, didn't we just bomb the crap out of Iraq twice in the last couple of decades?

What the hell are you on about?


This is the "current" HAMAS charter
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)


'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

It goes on and on in this vein...seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me...



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28 Nov 2016, 9:40 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


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29 Nov 2016, 10:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


The state of Israel exists in 2016 in the context of "realpolitik" in that moral or historical injustices don't provide reasoning for the removal for either the state of Israel or it's Jewish population which is what HAMAS (and therefore the Palestinians) want. Using the argument of "returning land" or removing Jewish settlers would provide a legal justification for the return of Australia and the USA to it's indigenous inhabitants which for practical reasons can't happen. The State of Israel was created with the support of the British empire which (ironically) also includes Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait. Nobody questions the territorial rights of the corrupt royal families in these countries to exist...

What HAMAS and the Palestinians are fighting for is reverse genocide against the Jewish population


Actually. Hamas agreed to settle the conflict in 2014, by agreeing to form a coalition government with the PA, and agreed to the terms set out by the EU and US which in turn meant that Hamas agreed to all former treaties and such, including Oslo. This sent Netanyahu over the edge and he waited for a pretext to go into Gaza and "mow the lawn". Please stop spouting Israeli propaganda, it's embarrassing. Lol. It isn't Israel's land to return, it's occupied Palestinian territory. Israel's theft was done after the formation of the UN, not hundreds of years ago. Um, didn't we just bomb the crap out of Iraq twice in the last couple of decades?

What the hell are you on about?


This is the "current" HAMAS charter
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)


'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

It goes on and on in this vein...seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me...


Israel knew what Hamas were and helped them get to power by destroying the PLO, who wanted to resolve the conflict. Hamas is a product of what Israel have been doing to Palestinians for decades. Palestinians have tried to be non violent, and got arrested, beaten, tortured and/or killed. You completely ignore Israel's actions and actual charter which they are carrying out, basically Moshe Dayan's promise "We don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go".


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