Chuchulainn vs. the Wishful Thinkers, err, Atheists

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They were persecuted originally, but the policy of Spain in her colonies (and I think Portugal had the same policy) was 'convert or die.' Many Christian medieval rulers had the same policy, and thorughout the Dark Ages non-Christians were persecuted in varying degrees throughout Chrisitian Europe. In fact, the Romans were much more tolerant; if you worshipped their gods, you could, in addition worship your own god(s), they did not demand that everyone convert. this was a problem for monotheists like Jews and Christians, which is why they were both persecuted - not because they worshipped non-Roman gods, but because they refused to worship Roman gods, the Romans had more religious tolerance than medieval Christians. Interestingly, medieval Islam was far more tolerant than Saudi Arabia, let alone Afghanistan under the Taliban (the Taliban being like a modern-day, Muslim version of medieval Christian fanaticism).

LONG before the inquisition.
This policy was used in the
baltic states. And in the empire
itself, at an early point - not, or
die, but if you wanted a damned
worthwhile job, you had to be
a Christian. A matter of keeping
the control where 'twas most
useful. Carried into the medieval
period, from thence.

A power struggle for a prevalent religion would seem natural to me. It doesn't have anything to do with religious morality though; that's just human nature. The prevailing religion is just something that might be used to cull the masses. However, when you cross that line and use religion as an excuse to allow war, then people can't help but conclude that such a religion that allows war is horrible, not to mention the people behind it. For that reason, the people who allowed the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition to happen are crazy, and make Christianity look bad. If Christianity hadn't existed, there's no way to know if they would still have caused a war--they wouldn't have a good justification for it (well, Christianity isn't a good justification for it either), but at least you can't blame religion. I can't speak for the Vikings either. It does go to show that if they did it for the sake of their religion, then they are no better than the Christians who caused the crusades, but if it was for the sake of their traditions, that's human nature.



The fact that you are suggesting that a religion is more advanced and scientific might be offensive to some (maybe even most) members of the scientific community, especially considering there is no science in claiming a 6000 year old flat Earth to exist, and believing that God causes rain or moves the clouds. I have yet to see how Christianity might be "world-improving". Fundamentalists use creationism, a Christian idea in a most unscientific and dishonest way to convince politicians and layment (who are obviously less experienced in science) to believe it's true, and to allow it to be taught in science classes, and Christianity basically says you're worthless, and skepticism is wrong. But without skepticism, we could not question what exists around us, nor could we use or understand technology, which leads to better living standards. And for that reason, I cannot see how Christianity improves the world. And furthermore, secular societies have lower crime and divorce rates. There have been no accurate studies done on Christian societies to show that they do indeed have lower crime or divorce rates than the secular societies do.

As I posted elsewhere, most genocides in history were committed by religious people, often using religion as a justification, either of the genocide directly or of their right to do as they pleased (the divine right of kings). Highly secular societies (Scandinavia, Holland) don't seem particularly threatening to me, and are stable, democratic and prosperous. The opposite extreme are places like Sudan, Afghanistan. I know which ones I find more benign.



I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe in goblins or the Flying Spaghetti Monster - no evidence that they exist or that they don't - a common condition of things that don't exist. What is stated without proof can be denied without proof. This does not mean I don't have convictions, it means I have them for reasons other than fear of being chucked into a lake of fire by some supernatural entity, and it means they're not just what's in a book a priest told me to read. My reasons to be moral are my personal sense of decency rather than fear of supernatural punishment. Dostoyevski was wrong; is god exists, then everything is allowed (in his name), as hsitory abundantly shows.




Science is just a method to obtain knowledge - it neither denies morality nor determines it. It informs it. As for 'paranormal' things on tv, maybe you should look at one of David Copperfield's shows to see something that appears magical and remember to be a little more skeptical about what you see on the media instead of taking things at face value. Somebody else has already posted about the statistical probability of Earth given how big the universe is.

You DON'T BELIEVE in the flying spaghetti monster?

- runs screaming from the room pulling out handfuls of hair... -

How DARE you deny the existence of the flying spaghetti monster, just because there is no proof at all that it is real and some guy just made him up!

My fellow believing Christians,

Chuchulain is completely right. Belief in the one true God is the source of all true morality. Atheists like to make the claim that they believe in science and reason, but this is comically absurd: Reason is a mental faculty endowed to us by the Divine Creator so that we may know Him better. When His gifts to us are abused to deny His existence, His everlasting love, and His cosmic order, great evil can only follow. Science is an aberration that leads to such things as the denial of the story of Genesis and a non-Bible-based accounting of why things are as they are. Surely, in many cases, the words of scientists and atheistic philosophers have the sound of methodical, well-reasoned argument, but this is how the devil tricks us.

Friends, the atheists are of this world only; and they are demons, willing servants of Satan. Like Richard Dawkins, they are facile liars and propagandists who knowingly lead the gullible straight to the fire and brimstone of Hell! Because they deny the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, their lives are a constant streak of sin, and they can never know truth, knowledge, beauty, wisdom, righteousness, and eternal salvation—not unless they right their wicked ways. The atheists, secularists, and scientists of this world unite to promote a deadly politic of social libertine homosexuality, unwed cohabitation, sexual promiscuity, killing of babies and the unborn, brainwashing of our children through the public schools, and promotion of plants and amoebas above human beings! Make no mistake: They hate our God-fearing traditions, our flag-respecting patriotism, and our simpler way of living.

Sure, we may not all have fancy Ph.D.s in astrophysics or mathematics, but we've got something they will never have: faith.

Wow, you haven't been listening to a single goddamn word anybody has been saying huh?
Christians only hear what they want to, they don't listen to anybody who disagrees with them, yet they expect us to listen to them?
You sound like a total clone of Chihuahua, you dont have anything original to say, just old recycled crap that we already threw out!

No ad hominems please.

You didn't say anything that wasn't already said by Chihuahua, and you obviously just ignored what everybody else said, so why should anybody listen to you?
Hell, you just ignored what I said while responding to it!
Its pointless to argue with a blind, ignorant sheep like you.

Ahh, what the heck. I'll bite.

And your evidence to support these claims is...?

The divine revelation that comes through prayer, Bible study, introspection, Christian living, and faith!

Somebody needs a dictionary . . . he said EVIDENCE!!
I could say all that same crap about Satanism, but does that make it true or is just the way I see it?
Once again, the key word here is evidence.

Any time you make a claim regarding anything supernatural or omnipotence, there really is no evidence, it is something that is just left to faith (which means belief in something without/very little evidence or based on less than adequate grounds).

Anything regarding religion is basically subjective when you think about it.

That's only true if you believe that morality stems from God, but I don't think that's true. Morality stems from ourselves, not some unconfirmed deity who makes up morals so that we could suffer. And science and reason are not things we believe out of faith. We accept science and reasoning for its practical uses. Religious ideas are, in my opinion, impractical and useless or redundant. I also do not accept that reason, an abstract concept, could be created by anything that exists in this world. Or rather, that reason, as well as every single abstract concept that might exist were not created, for how absurd is it for any abstract concept to be created? That would be like saying there was a time when 1+1 was not equal to 2. And since skepticism is a subset of reason, I see no reason as to why your "Divine Creator" would bother to create reason, as absurd as it is. It makes no sense at all, even if an abstract concept could be created. As an atheist agnostic, I choose not to accept the "love" of something or someone who cannot show himself to me, for I do not love what I cannot see or perceive--it is more believable to love something or someone you know exists. Science may lead to denail of biblical stories, and make fairy tales out of them, but it does so, not out of ignorance, but acceptance of what may as well be true. At the very least, scientists can back up their claims when questioned, but the bible cannot. Can Genesis explain why such great diversity in organisms exists, when the flood fails to produce it? Can Genesis explain why we have rocks on Earth that appear to be much older than 6000 years? Can Genesis explain why a horizon over a "flat" field appears curved rather than flat? It cannot do any of these things, and fails to justify its ridiculous claims. To accept such a biblical and obsolete account is simply ignorance of evidence that we see all around us. There is nothing wrong with accepting a scientific explanation, non biblical or not. And pity to those who believe the devil has anything to do with science, or the actions of man. For humanity is fueled by its very own nature and our own thoughts--our minds are our own, and we choose to believe, think or accept what we will. If we were driven by reason to accept a scientific explanation, then you are also contradicting yourself. If you believe God created reason, then we could not have been following the word of the devil. And furthermore, if you could blame these on the devil, then this contradicts the concept of free will that your bible or God claims to have given us. To blame these on the devil is an excuse to criticize science and reasoning, although I might suggest it's because of your denial to accept something that counters what the bible says.



Thanks for offending us once again. I can assure you that we do not do things because someone else wants us to. We made the choice to choose reason over faith because its results are much more significant than faith. You could not accomplish higher living standards without reason, which leads to science and technology. Think about how you even have a computer to begin with so that you could be typing your messages at us, possibly for the sake of mocking us. If scientists and people who reasoned without faith did not exist, or did not think that way, you would have no computer. You might actually be contradicting yourself, since you take for granted the priviliges for using a computer, and that all these scientists and other people of reason long past have made such contributions that pave the way for technology, and subsequently, the computer you use to type your message on. According to your own train of thought, you are using a device that the devil has made us create. If you believe that scientists are liars, why don't you try out or take a look at their experiments and reports and see for yourself the evidence? The way science is structured is that the probability for the entire collection of scientists to be lying is significantly low. If every single scientist were liars, then the "evidence" they arrive at and make claims about would not converge; they would be completely different. But I have not seen such a thing. Even worse, there are Christians (most likely fundamentalists) who go so far as to make fake evidences to fool scientists. Or how creationists try to deceive politicians because they cannot convince any scientist worth his salt. Does that not tell you anything about the honesty of scientists or the dishonesty of the fundamentalists and creationists? And the fact that you wish for us to go to hell says much about your own religion, doesn't it?
It's funny though, because I always see knowledge and beauty in things like math, and even science, to some degree has some knowledge and beauty in it, though scientists probably have an easier time seeing that than I do with math. You accuse us of not being able to see the beauty and knowledge in Christianity, but I cannot; there is no reason in Christianity that leads me to believe that beauty or knowledge, or any of the things you claim it has exist in Christianity. I also do not believe that God created math. If math is an abstract concept, then it was not created; it existed all along. Which is another contradiction--if God created math and I could not see its beauty or knowledge if I did not have faith in him, then I could not enjoy math as much as I do now.
I, as well as many other atheists do not hate Christians. It is not my business to know or care about what you wish to believe, so long as it does not harm us or anyone else. You may go on believing what you will; I won't think less of you if you leave me alone when asked to. I may believe the bible is ridiculous, and faith is blind, but those are my own personal beliefs and opinions. I am sure you hold your own beliefs and opinions as well, and I accept that they are yours. I have no desire to change them, and I only state my opinions on this board for the sake of discussion, and so that I may explain them.



That's all fine and good; I'd rather not have something as blind and irrational as faith anyways. Whatever has faith ever done for society anyways? It couldn't accomplish our living standards that we have now, and a lot of other things that people take for granted.

This topic is getting absurd. With all the respect to the specific posters (and without wanting to offend anyone) but you don't really believe nonsense as

This topic could be excellent for some mature discussion about religion if it wasn't for this preaching-esque nonsense. What atheist is going to be converted if he is being compared to a demon from hell?