Buddhism

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Whose misfortune? A life is just as long as is needed to experience a certain fixed amount of karma in a certain way. When this period is over you die, no matter what your age. You don't have to have excessive "bad" karma in order to die young. Bad here means karma which is experienced as painful. In fact karma is related to attachment, "bad" and "good" karma are from a spiritual viewpoint not very different from each other. They both tie you to your ego (to a more narrow form of consciousness). Desire for pleasure and the fear of pain are two sides of the same coin.

Karma without reincarnation makes little sense.

No, karma does not inherently imply reincarnation. The ideas that (actions are tied to consequences), and that (there are moral or ethical consequences of action) can stand quite nicely even when people have no concept of reincarnation.

Hinduism (which does usually include reincarnation) does not say that everything that happens to a person is the result of their personal karma or actions. They acknowledge the possibility that an evil person might torture or kill an innocent, or that other forces (calamities of nature, disease, capricious gods, etc) can affect people. Hindus do not usually believe that all suffering is self-created, although they see the path out of suffering over multiple lives is through ethical response to what is encountered.

Last edited by monty on 17 Sep 2008, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, that was more or less my point

And neither of them make that much sense

EDIT - @ Daran

(I might be biased because there is no way in hell I want to come back here again.)

That's the nice thing about karma and reincarnation. They happen whether you like so or not. Not wanting to come back again is a good thing. If you emancipate yourself enough during this life, you don't have to come back again. Reincarnation doesn't happen forever, there was a starting point and there is an end to it.

... or they're made up and don't really happen anyway.

Attaining nirvana is almost impossible for any being. The Buddha himself said so. Before his "last birth" as the Hindu prince, Sakyamuni had worked on his enlightenment for thousand of years, painstakingly saving up his good karma.

Yeah I agree

It would take too damn long

Pass

But it's worth it. The journey is definitely worthwhile. Maybe next life you'll be reborn as an NT.

I was just reading a thread about the sense of self on general discussion forum and this thought struck me- if autistic people have no sense of self, can we assume that being autistic might be a karmic reward, having a state of mind so detached from oneself and from earthly things, thus being more likely to achieve enlightment?

I know this might sound strange, but I think that what I've struggled the most with was understanding/accepting the concept of the emptyness of self. I've seen many Buddhists struggle with this, seems like most people are attached to their identity too much to accept the fact that it does not objectively exist.

anyway, just a thought, it would be great to hear what other buddhist/non-buddhists have to say about it.

Loosely speaking I am a Zen Buddhist. I am normally reluctant to take part in this sort of debate but I will attempt to give a shortish answer to your question. It is not a question of "understanding" a "concept" of the emptyness of self. It is more a question of perception that the "concept" is actually one of "I" or "me". If the concept of "self" is looked at very deeply it is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. There is no self. There are thoughts, emotions a life story of the physical human, but attempts to pin down an "owner" of those things fails. There is only consciousness. Consciousness and its content cannot be separated, they are one and the same "thing". In Zen Buddhism there is no faith, no belief in anything, but rather a process of realising the huge amount of conditioning we all carry around that we attach a label of "I" to. Zen is about discarding the false and the seeing what is.
This reply could easily go on into many pages but I'll cut it short here unless anyone has any specific questions.

There has to be a certain sense of self even with autism or you cannot stay in your body.
But a weakened sense of self in people with autism I think so yes.

Whether this weakened sense of self has any spiritual benefits is something I haven't been able to figure out.
On the one hand it does seem to make it easier to accept that the self is just a construct of the mind that has no basis in a higher reality but on the other hand it makes it less easy to act things out in the world and to so rid oneself effectively of karma.

I'm not a buddhist in the sense that I don't deny the existence of a self or atman in humans. I do think that the self is a relative thing which can be overcome or outgrown by expanding the mind to a higher or more original state. From a higher "viewpoint" the self doesn't exist.

isn't that what all Buddhism is about? I'm a Theravada myself but I agree with you. when I first began to read and learn about buddhism I had to understand the theory first though in order to apply it. now I'm somehow dodgy at applying it because my "sense of self" sometimes gets in the way on a subconciuos level.

I try to fight that but it's only human nature to be attached to ones self. that's why I thought that people with more severe types of autism might have the advantage of not being attached to their selves, at least in the buddhist perspective.

So you are a fellow Buddhist . It is thirty years since I first read a book about Buddhism. My life has never been the same since. I semi-agree about the understanding of the theory. I would pick you up on the words "apply it" though. To "apply" implies an effort made out of a belief rather than a natural response born out of "knowing". I never try to "apply" Buddhism - in that sense perhaps I break with certain aspects of tradition. I question all tradition and belief systems. For example mindfulness isn't something I practice, it is just something that happens. Similarly with meditation (I do Shikantaza meditation) there is no object, no target, nothing to be achieved, simply an opening up, a seeing, a perceiving.

Regarding theory, yes and no. Teachers / teachings are good as pointers. The none-self is perhaps very counter intuitive and contrary to what most of us are brought up to believe about individuality. So yes, pointing out of the illusory nature of self is good but beyond that it is for the person to see the truth or otherwise of what the teachers say. To look within for oneself and see if the self exists or not. What is it that feels like "I"? To go deep within.

Maybe you are right that aspies have an advantage with Buddhist spiritual insight. I have never strongly associated with my body or mind. The words "I" and "me" have always had a strange feel about them, as though they are an outer layer, an abstraction. I have felt that since a young child. Other people seem to attach a sense of self in varying amounts to their body, mind, belief systems, physical looks, social status, wealth, profession etc.
I am and always have been more of a witness, a none-judging spectator to everything, consciousness itself.

I'm not claiming to be enlightened, there are times of full immersion in Samsara, a forgetting of my true nature, a veil over perception. This doesn't really matter though, it is all part of the entertainment Then awareness opens again and clarity returns. There is an "ease" about things now, a deep sense of peace. Difficult to describe.

Have you been a Buddhist long? I wonder if there are many Buddhist aspies? I don't normally take part in the debates on here, most are pointless and seem to be ego contests rather than people looking for truth.

yeah, I think I know what you mean. I often catch myself in a weird circle of achieving the "deep sense of peace" as you called it, then finding life more enjoyable and fulfilling because of that, and in effect getting attached to that sense of peace and life in general again...

I'm not a very good buddhist as you see

Its hard to say how long I've been buddhist, I started reading loads about it some 3-4 years ago and didn't even notice when I became one. I'd love to get some guidance one day though, maybe travel to some monastery or something, I often feel like I might be getting a lot of things wrong.

there's a few of us here, carturo is Theravada as well and there was a few more people somewhere here too if I remember correctly.

I was a Mahayana/Pureland Buddhist before I reverted to Catholicism.

I also just sort of slipped into Buddhism. It just happens. One day you realise that your personal philosophy is 90% the same as Buddhism so you might as well put the hat on and say "I'm a Buddhist".

Try not to think of doing anything right or wrong regarding Buddhism. See beyond the teachings and the culture and look for yourself. The key with Buddhism is self exploration, insight. It is not about reading lots of books and becoming a philosopher. A philosopher who has never eaten an apple can study and write a very learned book all about apples, where they grow and all the varieties and he may be considered an expert by many people. However the true Buddhist is the child who simply plucks the apple from the tree and eats it.

I think everyone who discovers Buddhism (me included) goes through quite a long period of looking for the elusive thing called enlightenment, or personal peace or some sort of revelation or wonderful experience through meditation. This can lead to periods of happiness which is also ephemeral. Eventually though you may find you are no longer seeking for personal happiness, you see through the illusion of trying to bring a permanent happiness to an abstract, none existent "self".

Somehow, when the trying stops, the seeing happens. It is only when the self is seen through that a shift in consciousness happens.

Take meditation for example. When I was younger I used to sit for many hours determined to realise enlightenment. Grim determination. I was completely missing the point. "I" will never be enlightened. It is only when the quest for personal elevation stops that awakening happens.

There is a sort of catch 22 about it though. You can then go through a phase of seeking enlightenment by not seeking it - hoping to somehow sneak up on it unawares and pounce. With mindfulness you start to see the games the mind plays. It is through mindfulness that you see your thoughts, feelings and desires come into existence, run their course and go again. The very observation of your mind at work, in a none judging way is the key to Buddhist insight. Being the witness. Not trying to change anything or criticise you own thoughts or behaviour, but simply watching. After some time something happens and you will never be the same again.