Criteria for evidence of a God.

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2008, 1:12 pm

Haliphron wrote:

Fnord wrote:

A direct, one-to-one, face-to-face meeting between myself and God, plus a minor miracle or two (such as regenerating somebody's missing limb).

I'll drink to that

. But also, a demonstration before thousands of people of a flagrant violation of physical law. Such as a mountain seperating from its base and levitating in mid air. Or a voice thundering down from the sky......

I'll buy that for two pieces of silver. :wink:

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2008, 1:21 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Personally, I'd like to see even one of them perform an act of healing that can be measured and documented - such as regenerating a lost limb.

Well, even if it were measured and documented, would such an act be believed too long after it occurred? I mean, Christians will argue that the Bible is the documentation of this.

Christians have such intense faith in their Bible, don't they? "Because it is God-inspired" they say. How do they know this? "It says so in the Bible!" they say ... and around, and around, and around it goes ... :roll:

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10 Dec 2008, 2:40 pm

Fnord wrote:

And Muslims use the same principle for saying the Koran (Quoran) is the true word of God.

Similarly Hindus and the Upanishads.

Circular arguments hold no weight. As a youngster I was plagued with Jehovah's Witnesses trying to convert me and when I asked them logical questions they always went in circles and finally ended up saying "Because it says so in the bible".

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10 Dec 2008, 2:41 pm

...and Waterlins lol

greenblue
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10 Dec 2008, 3:19 pm

Orwell wrote:

Yes, people believe lots of things without proof. Hate to be the one to say it folks, but just about everything you've learned about history, science, or anything else you have chosen to believe without proof.

QFT

About things related to God, Christianity and religion, most people can't escape from their own biased position, even if they believe themselves to be objective or reasonable, I come to think that anyone who rejects a certain belief who ask for any proof, would likely fall into confirmation bias and selection bias, especially if one identifies with a group or label that holds and defends certain belief and/or position, including atheists.

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2008, 3:22 pm

greenblue wrote:

... I come to think that anyone who rejects a certain belief who ask for any proof, would likely fall into confirmation bias and selection bias, especially if one identifies with a group or label that hold certain beliefs and/or position, including atheists.

My criteria for proof is simple: A face-to-face meeting with God, and a miracle that only He could perform, such as the regeneration of a lost limb by His will alone - no fancy medical equipment, no drugs, and no lame excuses.

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10 Dec 2008, 3:54 pm

I think that we are all God if there has to a name or a word that describes something that is undescribable. I also think that within our minds lay all of the attributes and characteristics people typically ascribe to God but we just don't know how to access those attributes. I know that I could make it rain in Kansas on any particular day if I could just get the right neurons aligned and I'm being very serious. I think we all have that kind of capability.
Is that 'God'? I don't know. I think it's pretty close.
When I was a little kid I asked god to send me a sign that he existed. A few moments later a huge lightingbolt hit our fence and burned it down. It was 'waaaaaay impressive' but even as a kid I didn't figure God was that obvious. I said a little prayer anyway just in case to cover my bases.

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Fraya
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10 Dec 2008, 3:59 pm

Orwell wrote:

The difference is that unlike religion; history, science and just about everything else you can independently verify through your own experiments and research.

Religion is the only thing you have to believe without proof. In almost everything else you have a choice.

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2008, 4:01 pm

Fraya wrote:

Religion is the only thing you have to believe without proof.

There is an alternative. You can choose to NOT believe without proof. Thus, you have two choices in the matter of religion.

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10 Dec 2008, 4:03 pm

Fnord wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Religion is the only thing you have to believe without proof.

There is an alternative. You can choose to NOT believe without proof. Thus, you have two choices in the matter of religion.

Ok so to elaborate in religion you can choose to believe or not believe without proof in everything else you have a third option of proving it.

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Fnord
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10 Dec 2008, 4:06 pm

Fraya wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Fraya wrote:

Religion is the only thing you have to believe without proof.

There is an alternative. You can choose to NOT believe without proof. Thus, you have two choices in the matter of religion.

Ok so to elaborate in religion you can choose to believe or not believe without proof in everything else you have a third option of proving it.

Faith is the irrational belief in improvable things, while religion is the socio-political expression of that faith.

If any religion had proof to support it, then it would be a science.

skafather84
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10 Dec 2008, 4:13 pm

there is no criteria for god because it's always redrawn to fit what we know and then circumvent it (ie, to maintain the "cannot prove" myth).

jehova's story has had more retcons than superman, spiderman, and the x-men (all the incarnations) combined.

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slowmutant
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10 Dec 2008, 4:27 pm

True. Very true.

My advice? Forget about this criteria for evidence. God Himself is in a place where you refuse to look. You'll never find Him if you don't look there. You'll never find God if you refuse to look inside yourself, inside others. So quit while you're ahead. Go back to logging data.

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10 Dec 2008, 4:29 pm

slowmutant wrote:

I did look.. found animals that think they aren't animals so desperately they're willing to believe anything.

Found no God there except for the awe inspiring power of human selfishness.

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skafather84
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10 Dec 2008, 4:36 pm

slowmutant wrote:

You'll never find God if you refuse to look inside yourself, inside others.

i am my own god. i know this already. unfortunately everyone else relinquishes their own godhood to others in the voluntary oligarchy.

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10 Dec 2008, 4:40 pm

Fraya wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

I did look.. found animals that think they aren't animals so desperately they're willing to believe anything.

Found no God there except for the awe inspiring power of human selfishness.

What about the power of human kindness? If you've never experienced simple human kindness, you have been sorely cheated.

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