god created the universe and let it evolve without any furth

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The word "faith" is being bandied about as if it was some sort of synonym with logic and reason. It is very, very different.

it is. So long as you know that much of what you believe is faith and not logic and reason.

Your statement might win some sort of prize for amorphous vacuous accusation. You haven't the faintest idea what I believe or don't believe. If you are not going to be specific it is merely a general pejorative.

it doesn't matter if you believe in a god/supernatural being or not... what you believe does not matter (read my statements). the belief is based on faith. So you can't claim that your belief is all logic, because that is impossible. In fact your basic belief is no more or less plausible/rational/logical than the other belief. It is merely another possibility. One that humanity will never be able to prove either way.

And if you do not believe in anything that cannot be seen, felt or sensed in some way consistently by instruments that can relate to human sensual apparatus, how is that faith?

Thats very bold of you, to stand up to the so called "bully" of the religion forum. I'm not trying to be mean I'm trying to speak the cold truth which needs to be said by someone, and express my frustration which I believe others might be too afraid to express because normally it is "unacceptable" to speak so outwardly. But it needs to be done to get the message across. I seek to destroy corruption with words, nothing more. However my ultimate concern is the stability of my folk, which is part of this struggle. Of course there will be a run of the mill scientist who might say "sure I believe in god" today, but normally they aren't actually religious. The only reason why scientists a long time ago were religious, was because it was almost impossible not to in those days. People who weren't abrahamic were looked down on as "devil worshipers" your comment was not exactly logical. Especially the final one.

It is faith because you believe they do not exist. You have faith that the entire universe is measurable by instruments that can relate to human sensual apparatus. Because you cannot be 100% sure that you are correct (though many delude themselves into believing so). In fact you cannot be 100% sure that reality is what you believe it is.

that and senses can be manipulated. How many people have seen god, aliens, ghosts and fairies? Every one of those experiences you would pass off as hallucinations.

Is this the religion forum?

no one lies to you better than you do to yourself. All sociological/religious/political groups have had their crappy times. But you can say to none of them that they are unable to contribute to society. Because at least one of them will defy you. All have helped, and all can help. And no one can prevent another human from the truth in the same way that that person will hold themselves back.

How was I lying to myself? I don't even know how to lie :s
What happened along time ago was just ONE example of something that makes me angry about it, I wasn't saying it's the ONLY thing they should take responsibility for. Their tyranny continues to this day, just not in an extreme direct and violent form anymore. I mean, I can't even watch my own new president take the place of evil Bush without the entire ceremony being drowned with christian BS, as if everyone in the US falls for that jewish excrement. So here I sit, trying to drown it out with my music as it blares downstairs throughout the entire house.

I flicked the TV on here in France and Obama was there saying the Lords Prayer. Quickly changed channel.

Just to say I do not start fights with other people about their beliefs. They think I'm going to go to hell or be reincarnated as a headlouse. I think their crazy.
I fail to see how logic can provide a suitable answer as to prove either side of this arguement. The plain facts to me are that all holy books were written by mankind and so are figments of imagination. I do not beleive that hansel and gretal were almost eaten by a witch and so I certainly do no beleive in any other thing which cannot be proved, even halfway. I beleive in evolution because it has logic in it, followed by evidence. This is what religon needs. If they come up with a book which actually has facts in it, with undisputable proof that this universe started by some spirtual means, I will listen to it. Until then I beleive firmly in evolution.
If god wants to change me they will have to show themselves to me or do something - anything - to prove their existence. If they are definatly there then how come nothing happens anymore? Innocent churchgoers dying of cancer, evil souls dictating and living for a long long time... I would love to beleive that if I spend my life devotedly following a figure I cannot see I would be enternally rewarded for the rest of time. A safe haven. A resting place. Sadly all that happens is that I will either rot or burn, whether there is a god or not.
I know I may be dictating my beleifs but I religous people do it to me everyday and its made me rather defensive. I get called a satanist simply because I do not follow their rules. I was attacked by a Christian because I stood up for a sick persons euthenaisa. A Sikh girl who I was best friends with was forbidden to speak to me ever again when her parents found out I wasn't religous at all. What is wrong with the world?
Is that not cruel?

Those terms were discussed by Spinoza. How we can realize that something is "beyond natural forces"? We can not, because we do not know all natural forces and their interaction. Therefore a prove is not possible.

But: We can access probabilities. Did anything happen with such an improbability that anything "beyond natural forces" has to be seen as the cause? No? So there is no reason to assume that such thing exist, therefore the thesis of anything supernatural can be safely ignored till an incident happens, which would re-raise the question.



No, on an assessment of probabilities.

Even basic laws of physics are "only" acting highly probable. We think that the 1st Law of Thermodynamics is always true, because no experiment proved the opposite and all experiences and observations so far do make only sense with the assumption that this law is always and under all circumstances true.

As a reply from user monkees4eva, I just have to commend her for her use of logic however one of the things it appears that makes me not like her which is ok, is that I just have no tollerence for corrupt values and something that causes harm on such a wide scale like this. (And people walk around with plastered smiles all day not even noticing the problems). So the only place for christianity I have in my heart is the one side of hatered, I just can't help it. All I want is this to be understood, because I'm not an "evil" person. All I want is for humanity to grow up a little, and to stop hurting itself like this. It's just very very upsetting to me because abrahamic religion has hurt all of us, and it always seems I'm the only one who cares =/

I consider probabilities when I make my own personal decisions. the probabilities are not based on faith. the decision to believe is. I can calculate the mathematical probability that I will get hit by lightning. that is not faith. If I walk around with the belief that I will never get hit by lightning... that is faith. It might be faith supported by evidence, but it is still faith.

As for your statement "Did anything happen with such an improbability that anything "beyond natural forces" has to be seen as the cause?"

we merely assume no. we could explain it in another way. you just don't know

Intolerant much?