Ethnic Traits

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Claire, I'm going by my own observation. None of the stereotypes I have suggested are documented anywhere that I know of.

Sand, why would all the other animals on the planet have differences within their species and not us? I don't think it is very scientific to have taboos in science. I think we should study the taboo so that we can become more enlightened of our instincts. If we just avoid them, then like I said before, we become vulnerable to those who do understand the human instincts and can use them as a herding device.

I never denied that there are variations within humanity. It's just that the gross characteristics of skin color, bone structure, hair color, or whatever other racial characteristics people use to group others by race or nationality, etc. are unreliable keys to the assumed associated other basic characteristics.

"I don't think it is very scientific to have taboos in science."

I guess I can understand why someone would say there was a conversational, or general cultural, taboo about race, & talking about race, but why do you think there is a scientific taboo about it?

My knowledge of the current state of scientific knowledge about differences between races is incredibly sketchy, but as I understand it we know different races have greater & lesser chances of developing particular diseases & conditions, but it also seems as if there isn't enough genetic variation between the races for us to be able to draw any conclusions about differences in intelligence or physical capabilities. Race as conceived of in the 19th & in much of the 20th century doesn't seem to exist in any definite way.

The stereotypes you list about witty Jews & fast Africans don't seem to be much more than stereotypes, & I can't think why a community of Manhattan Jews relocated to the African savannah wouldn't after a few generations be more adept at sprinting than wisecracks, or why a tribe of Masai raised in the coffeehouses of inter-war Vienna wouldn't become accomplished aphorists whilst remaining indifferent gymnasts.

According to national geographic, influx into europe from the middle east has less effect than thought, at least so far as our features.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... faces.html

Are you talking about genetic traits or cultural traits. Most of us do not know our genome. It takes special equipment to map our genomes and the process is probably too expensive for everyone to have his genome mapped. And even so, we do not know (in general) how most of our genes are expressed either physically or behaviorally. Ethnic (cultural) traits are a different story. Most of us know something about the cultural background and history of our parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. That might give some clue to what sort of values we might have and how our character is formed.

ruveyn

ruveyn, your question should the basis for this whole discussion. I don't know how much is cultural. But, I do see some variation within races that seems to defy cultural influence.
Are these views really delusional? If so, why? There must be a reason why some people perceive others as being different. What causes this?

If it is true that ethnic traits cause variance in people, how did this occur? Maybe we should start with one race. How about we start with the Germans? Is anyone willing to categorize these people and label them with characteristics?

The idea that the Germans - of all people - could possibly constitute a cohesive race or even a single lineage is preposterous. I mean, if you wanted to start dividing Europeans up by lineage (which I will take the liberty of doing so patrilineally as I have done elsewhere in this thread; if there is anyone with a grasp of mtDNA haplogroups feel free to chime in!), the Germans are like right there as a mix of paleolithic Europe to the west and Indo-European Europe to the east, and I'm willing to guess that they show a completely continuous cline between east and west, such that drawing a line and saying "German" is just nonsense. If you're going to choose a "race", you should choose one outside of the relatively inbred European continent unless you want to talk about white people as a whole.


Human evolution is an interest of mine to some extent yes. I just wanted to straighten facts, as I sometimes get the feeling that people are rather quick to claim Northern European or otherwise "Germanic" ancestry, for whatever reason. Which aspect of your argument have I supported?

The Germans are like other societies and nationalities. There are multiple cultural currents running through the German nation. There Germans historically share much with the Netherlanders, the French and some of the eastern European nationalities.

ruveyn

Magnus, this taboo you are determinedly assuming does not prevent the study of human biological diversity.

Consider anthropology. A major sub-discipline in anthropology is biological anthropology; a field of study that simply put, is innately contrary to this taboo you assert. Biological anthropology is a real and thriving academic discipline, and an area of active and on-going research and study. Ergo this taboo you posit is contrary to reality.

Broadly speaking, anthropology as a whole, is entirely concerned with little else but the investigation and study of what you are positing it is taboo to investigate or study.

We could talk about white people as a whole. But, do you really think that there is no difference between let's say the Irish and the Germans? Irish people have more red hair and freckles. Their skin is much more fair. They tend to have blue eyes more so than the Germans. They have fiery personalities in comparison to the serious minded Germans. Of course some of this is cultural. I grew up in Chicago where I was surrounded by lots of Germans and Irish people who were second generation. I saw a difference in not only their appearances, but also their temperament. I'm not saying German people come from a pure race, btw.

Do you really a German kid brought up in Ireland from birth by an Irish family would stand out as extremely different? Obviously, a chimpanzee brought up by an Irish family might have some problems with culture and linguistic pronunciation but a German kid?

No, I don't think he would stand out. But, I bet he would feel that there was something odd about the whole situation.

Sand, are you really telling me that you don't see any differences between German people and Irish people? Maybe I am delusional. I really see differences.

The differences are purely cultural.

People will tend to look different, sure, and the variation of physical features is studied by anthropologists. You can find cline maps all over the place showing skin color variation, brain size variation (page 4, bottom), hair color variation, eye color variation. Some study of intelligence among groups is standard; there is plenty of data out there on say the variation of IQ, say, among ethnic groups in the USA. An interesting example of IQ variation is the cited IQ for Ashkenazi Jews, who are frequently cited as the highest IQ ethnic group in the world, with an IQ mean estimated from 107-112. The problem is that thus far no genetic explanation has received general support, but that does not mean that research is not going on. Criticism doesn't seem to stop the infamous Richard Lynn from publishing, and >>>Intelligence<<< doesn't seem to shy away from controversy.

Temperament is I would guess even more difficult to work on; as a note, perceptions of temperament change and it seems dubious to attribute any contemporary generality to a biological underpinning hastily. Some ancient Greek author, I'm afraid I can't remember who, observed something like "People in the north are spirited, people in the south are civilized...", which seems entirely the reverse of modern stereotypes.

I mean, yes, certain subjects are rather testy. But even the really controversial areas have at least some activity.

The people of modern Germany are perhaps the most ethnically mixed of all the Europeans.

This is starting to touch upon an special interest of mine(that didnt get very far).

There are some physical traits that allows a keen eye to assess ethnic divisions in a seemingly homogeneous population. Most of them are cultural mannerisms rather than morphological features.

Its especially hard in North America and getting harder.

There are also a good number of medical traits that correlate to certain ethnic groups. The diseases of the Ashkenazi jews are foremost of these, but the Germanic Amish have their own, as does my own variant of German.

I'm putting the breaks on. I will go on and on otherwise.

But the most obvious -and most useless- morphological trait in Europeans are the face shapes.