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ValentineWiggin
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30 Mar 2012, 1:05 pm

AspieRogue wrote:

My comment about gay men in the beauty industry was not about which sex has more power, it was a response to your sarcastic remark about not everyone in this world being straight or male when I posited that women are more attractive in their appearance than men. You obviously don't know much about art; cuz if you did you'd understand and acknowledge that beauty is not equivalent to sex appeal.

Yeah well, you obviously don't know much about the nature of classist struggle or power inequalities,
such as dominant paradigms, for example male heterosexuality and fetishization of the female form, being reinforced through art and media institutions. S'all good. :)

AspieRogue wrote:
Furthermore, I do not rely on statistics when it comes to how I behave towards people IRL. I rely partly on what I've been taught, partly on a newfound understanding of motives and social rules, and partly on experience as to what works and what doesn't. I have neither the time, nor the interest in doing any surveys about how random women want to be treated.

That's fine, so long as you don't make claims about what "most" women want or don't want.
AspieRogue wrote:
People are individuals, but their behavior is exceedingly regular and follows discernible patterns. And ironically, there is plenty of statistical evidence to back this up. :wink:

A point on which I extremely-heartily agree. Unfortunately.


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30 Mar 2012, 1:05 pm

When I say mst women would like to be treated as a man I mean be respected as a man. Would be like where they work not saying treat a woman like a guy that would just be rude. I haven't met most women but most of my close female friends, wish they could be given the same respect as a man. Nothing scares a man more then a strong independent woman but thats the kind of woman that I end up dating.



LKL
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30 Mar 2012, 1:12 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Feminism states that people should be paid according to their needs not their abilities.



That's actually socialism, not feminism per se. :P.

actually, that's communiism, not socialism.



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30 Mar 2012, 1:15 pm

LKL wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Feminism states that people should be paid according to their needs not their abilities.



That's actually socialism, not feminism per se. :P.

actually, that's communiism, not socialism.


In Communism you work for little pay in socialism everyone makes the same amount of money no one gets richer or pooer so I would so yes its socialism per say.



ValentineWiggin
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30 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

:tired:


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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AceOfSpades
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30 Mar 2012, 1:20 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
[Furthermore, I do not rely on statistics when it comes to how I behave towards people IRL. I rely partly on what I've been taught, partly on a newfound understanding of motives and social rules, and partly on experience as to what works and what doesn't. I have neither the time, nor the interest in doing any surveys about how random women want to be treated. People are individuals, but their behavior is exceedingly regular and follows discernible patterns. And ironically, there is plenty of statistical evidence to back this up. :wink:
Same here, but only because my experience is representative of the segment of society I deal with on a daily basis. However the segment of society I deal with on a daily basis isn't representative of society as a whole. Statistics are more reliable when it comes to that. But even then the human mind isn't good at grasping numbers so it's better to interpret your experiences more realistically than to just expect the numbers to click with you.

LKL wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Feminism states that people should be paid according to their needs not their abilities.



That's actually socialism, not feminism per se. :P.

actually, that's communiism, not socialism.
Isn't Communism supposed to be stateless and moneyless?



LKL
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30 Mar 2012, 1:22 pm

^ not precisely true. In the socialist countries of Northern Europe, people make different amounts of money depending on the amount of, and need for, their work, but the taxation rate is so progressive that it's very difficult for someone to become filthy-rich, and the social services are so good that it's difficult for anyone to be in absolute, grinding poverty.

Where this touches on feminism is that they generally have socialized medical care, meaning that their rates of maternal morbidity and mortality, and infant morbidityand mortality, are extremely low compared to the US. Also they often have structures in place to help new parents: paid parental leave, extensive daycare options, and sometimes even help coming into the home. They do this, in part, as an effort to keep their birth rates up.



30 Mar 2012, 1:29 pm

LKL wrote:
^ not precisely true. In the socialist countries of Northern Europe, people make different amounts of money depending on the amount of, and need for, their work, but the taxation rate is so progressive that it's very difficult for someone to become filthy-rich, and the social services are so good that it's difficult for anyone to be in absolute, grinding poverty.

Where this touches on feminism is that they generally have socialized medical care, meaning that their rates of maternal morbidity and mortality, and infant morbidityand mortality, are extremely low compared to the US. Also they often have structures in place to help new parents: paid parental leave, extensive daycare options, and sometimes even help coming into the home. They do this, in part, as an effort to keep their birth rates up.



As far as keeping their birth rates up, it really does not seem to be working........Not at all. Poverty and organized religion seem to be much more effective and motivating people to breed.

Furthermore, even in liberal, socialist, scandanavia there STILL is a small, wealthy elite that is exempt from the taxation laws that the majority of citizens are subjected to. On the one hand they try to ensure that everyone's basic needs are met, but on the other hand they make it nearly impossible to move up the economic ladder to the top. Economic mobility is a double-edged sword: Anyone can get rich, yet anyone can fall through the cracks and sink into poverty(even homelessness) because there is no safety net.



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30 Mar 2012, 1:35 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
LKL wrote:
^ not precisely true. In the socialist countries of Northern Europe, people make different amounts of money depending on the amount of, and need for, their work, but the taxation rate is so progressive that it's very difficult for someone to become filthy-rich, and the social services are so good that it's difficult for anyone to be in absolute, grinding poverty.

Where this touches on feminism is that they generally have socialized medical care, meaning that their rates of maternal morbidity and mortality, and infant morbidityand mortality, are extremely low compared to the US. Also they often have structures in place to help new parents: paid parental leave, extensive daycare options, and sometimes even help coming into the home. They do this, in part, as an effort to keep their birth rates up.



As far as keeping their birth rates up, it really does not seem to be working........Not at all. Poverty and organized religion seem to be much more effective and motivating people to breed.

Poverty and religion don't have as much motivation to make people breed their are a lot of people in this world addicted to sex and their need to breed is based on carnal lust sex becomes like a drug to them.



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30 Mar 2012, 1:52 pm

Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.



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30 Mar 2012, 1:58 pm

TM wrote:
Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.


My mother and former step dad worked at the same place had the same job but some how my former step dad was payed more then my mother though they had the same job.

Also when my brother and his former girlfrienf had a child together my brother quit his job to assist his girlfriend at the time in taking care of his daughter in the south most men tend to do that for the girl they love he took care of her and his daughter even if wome choose to work for a job that pays less some men that do the same job will still make more money.



TM
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30 Mar 2012, 2:01 pm

Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.


My mother and former step dad worked at the same place had the same job but some how my former step dad was payed more then my mother though they had the same job.

Also when my brother and his former girlfrienf had a child together my brother quit his job to assist his girlfriend at the time in taking care of his daughter in the south most men tend to do that for the girl they love he took care of her and his daughter even if wome choose to work for a job that pays less some men that do the same job will still make more money.


I love anecdotal evidence, and this is not true for Norway. Yet, regardless of the state of gender equality here, women are demanding that they be compensated for their choices and priorities.



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30 Mar 2012, 2:09 pm

TM wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.


My mother and former step dad worked at the same place had the same job but some how my former step dad was payed more then my mother though they had the same job.

Also when my brother and his former girlfrienf had a child together my brother quit his job to assist his girlfriend at the time in taking care of his daughter in the south most men tend to do that for the girl they love he took care of her and his daughter even if wome choose to work for a job that pays less some men that do the same job will still make more money.


I love anecdotal evidence, and this is not true for Norway. Yet, regardless of the state of gender equality here, women are demanding that they be compensated for their choices and priorities.


I wouldn't call my statement evidence but I do not that things are a lot diffrent in Norway then in America :wink:



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30 Mar 2012, 2:23 pm

Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.


My mother and former step dad worked at the same place had the same job but some how my former step dad was payed more then my mother though they had the same job.

Also when my brother and his former girlfrienf had a child together my brother quit his job to assist his girlfriend at the time in taking care of his daughter in the south most men tend to do that for the girl they love he took care of her and his daughter even if wome choose to work for a job that pays less some men that do the same job will still make more money.


I love anecdotal evidence, and this is not true for Norway. Yet, regardless of the state of gender equality here, women are demanding that they be compensated for their choices and priorities.


I wouldn't call my statement evidence but I do not that things are a lot diffrent in Norway then in America :wink:


The reason why I prefer using Norway as an example is that it is statistically and legally the most gender equal country in the world. In the country, "feminists" still spend time complaining that women are paid less (despite it being due to the choices women make). They still complain that women are underrepresented, despite women being the leaders of the majority of the political parties. They still complain about being underrepresented on the boards of companies, despite the fact that there is a large lack of women with the equivalent qualifications and work experience of the men on the board.

I have more examples, but the ones above alone allow me to form the conclusion that there are two groups of women.

There is the group that women like Indira Gandhi, Christine Legarde and countless other women in high positions of great accomplishment belong to, that is willing to work as hard as men, as much as man and forsake as much as men in order to obtain the same success as men.

Then there is the group that wants to have what the above group and quite a few men have, but are unwilling to make the required hard choices.

Just today I read an article on how women are a very small minority of contributions to wikipedia, as a result a representative said that they should try to accommodate women more, to entice them to partake in editing and writing articles. However, I subscribe to the belief that men and women are creatures with a degree of free will and a woman who wants to spend her time editing or writing wikipedia articles will.

I often say that believers have so little faith in the god they believe in and to be honest it seems to me that feminists have little faith in their own gender.



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30 Mar 2012, 2:30 pm

TM wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Here are the facts on equal rights in Norway:

- Men and Women get higher education in roughly equal amounts, however women choose professions that pay less.

- Women work a lot more part time than men. 40% of women work part time and 14% of men.

- 89.3% of children ages 1 - 5 attend kindergarten, yet this has not resulted in more women working.

Both genders should have equal opportunities, but one gender should not be compensated because they elect to work less, stay home after having a child longer despite that child being in kindergarten or pick professions that they are perfectly aware pay less than other professions. Equal opportunities and equal responsibilities for choices should be the mantra of any reasonable person.


My mother and former step dad worked at the same place had the same job but some how my former step dad was payed more then my mother though they had the same job.

Also when my brother and his former girlfrienf had a child together my brother quit his job to assist his girlfriend at the time in taking care of his daughter in the south most men tend to do that for the girl they love he took care of her and his daughter even if wome choose to work for a job that pays less some men that do the same job will still make more money.


I love anecdotal evidence, and this is not true for Norway. Yet, regardless of the state of gender equality here, women are demanding that they be compensated for their choices and priorities.


I wouldn't call my statement evidence but I do not that things are a lot diffrent in Norway then in America :wink:


The reason why I prefer using Norway as an example is that it is statistically and legally the most gender equal country in the world. In the country, "feminists" still spend time complaining that women are paid less (despite it being due to the choices women make). They still complain that women are underrepresented, despite women being the leaders of the majority of the political parties. They still complain about being underrepresented on the boards of companies, despite the fact that there is a large lack of women with the equivalent qualifications and work experience of the men on the board.

I have more examples, but the ones above alone allow me to form the conclusion that there are two groups of women.

There is the group that women like Indira Gandhi, Christine Legarde and countless other women in high positions of great accomplishment belong to, that is willing to work as hard as men, as much as man and forsake as much as men in order to obtain the same success as men.

Then there is the group that wants to have what the above group and quite a few men have, but are unwilling to make the required hard choices.

Just today I read an article on how women are a very small minority of contributions to wikipedia, as a result a representative said that they should try to accommodate women more, to entice them to partake in editing and writing articles. However, I subscribe to the belief that men and women are creatures with a degree of free will and a woman who wants to spend her time editing or writing wikipedia articles will.

I often say that believers have so little faith in the god they believe in and to be honest it seems to me that feminists have little faith in their own gender.


I would say that most of your views on women isn't entirely accurate.



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30 Mar 2012, 2:33 pm

TM wrote:
I love anecdotal evidence, and this is not true for Norway. Yet, regardless of the state of gender equality here, women are demanding that they be compensated for their choices and priorities.


Yup. I agree with much of what you say.