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Does anyone else agree with feminism?

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ValentineWiggin
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31 Mar 2012, 2:11 pm

Joker wrote:
Some men view Femminism as a threat to their Masculinity society has said that women are weak need that they need a man to protect them that this just isn't true most of my female friends do jobs that men do some of them weld others are fire men cops and a friend of mine is into Mixed Martial Arts that happens to be female women but it should be a sex issue or which gender is better then the other we are all people in the end.


As I've posted before, people who think themselves "egalitarian" and favor "separate but equal" spheres for women aka gender roles
usually do view feminism as a threat to masculinity with some validity- because feminism increasingly encroaches on what they consider to be masculinity itself, that being male domination of certain fields and roles in society. There's considerable sociological evidence pointing to that being the reason masculinity as a cultural construct has become increasingly synonymous with objectifying women and being violent toward them and other men- the "box" of masculinity is growing smaller and smaller.


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TM
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31 Mar 2012, 2:13 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

It's interesting to see people imagining themselves existing outside the patriarchy,
though I do wonder what systems other than feminist ones they have for theorizing an egalitarian dynamic between men and women-
if they don't favor egalitarian systems, then what problem have they with existing means of analyzing and opposing them, for instance?
How exactly, does one fight gender as a class of oppression through movements which have "nothing to do with gender"?


It depends on what you mean by "egalitarian" if you mean "equal rights and equal responsibilities" then we can never quite get there, because the fact is that women utilize more energy in order to produce offspring and this is offset by males exerting more energy in order to produce resources in order to attract a woman in the first place. Since "producing resources" is a function of "work" and work is ultimately where feminists seem to have most of their cause centered, their wish cannot take place unless a woman elects not to spend energy on producing offspring and focuses on producing resources instead. In the cases where women have made this choice, they are competitive with men.

As I stated, I support meritocracy, based on equal opportunities and equal responsibilities. So far, I have yet to meet a feminist who does.



Joker
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31 Mar 2012, 2:18 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
Some men view Femminism as a threat to their Masculinity society has said that women are weak need that they need a man to protect them that this just isn't true most of my female friends do jobs that men do some of them weld others are fire men cops and a friend of mine is into Mixed Martial Arts that happens to be female women but it should be a sex issue or which gender is better then the other we are all people in the end.


As I've posted before, people who think themselves "egalitarian" and favor "separate but equal" spheres for women aka gender roles
usually do view feminism as a threat to masculinity with some validity- because feminism increasingly encroaches on what they consider to be masculinity itself, that being male domination of certain fields and roles in society. There's considerable sociological evidence pointing to that being the reason masculinity as a cultural construct has become increasingly synonymous with objectifying women and being violent toward them and other men- the "box" of masculinity is growing smaller and smaller.


Being raised by a single mother all my life I am a male femminist not because of gender roles. Conservatives view "egalitarian" in a negitive way they think people should be put into certin classes or groups how ever I disagree how do they know where to put them?

Society has a really negitiave view of femminist men believeing some of us to be homosexual when that is irrelivant though I am omisexual I base my attractions to people but not based on their gender just the person.



ValentineWiggin
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31 Mar 2012, 2:19 pm

TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:

It's interesting to see people imagining themselves existing outside the patriarchy,
though I do wonder what systems other than feminist ones they have for theorizing an egalitarian dynamic between men and women-
if they don't favor egalitarian systems, then what problem have they with existing means of analyzing and opposing them, for instance?
How exactly, does one fight gender as a class of oppression through movements which have "nothing to do with gender"?


It depends on what you mean by "egalitarian" if you mean "equal rights and equal responsibilities" then we can never quite get there, because the fact is that women utilize more energy in order to produce offspring and this is offset by males exerting more energy in order to produce resources in order to attract a woman in the first place. Since "producing resources" is a function of "work" and work is ultimately where feminists seem to have most of their cause centered, their wish cannot take place unless a woman elects not to spend energy on producing offspring and focuses on producing resources instead. In the cases where women have made this choice, they are competitive with men.

What? Why do you perceive feminism to be primarily concerned with issues involving work?
TM wrote:
As I stated, I support meritocracy, based on equal opportunities and equal responsibilities. So far, I have yet to meet a feminist who does.

I'm ValentineWiggin. Pleased to meet you. ~handshake~


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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ValentineWiggin
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31 Mar 2012, 2:21 pm

Joker wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
Some men view Femminism as a threat to their Masculinity society has said that women are weak need that they need a man to protect them that this just isn't true most of my female friends do jobs that men do some of them weld others are fire men cops and a friend of mine is into Mixed Martial Arts that happens to be female women but it should be a sex issue or which gender is better then the other we are all people in the end.


As I've posted before, people who think themselves "egalitarian" and favor "separate but equal" spheres for women aka gender roles
usually do view feminism as a threat to masculinity with some validity- because feminism increasingly encroaches on what they consider to be masculinity itself, that being male domination of certain fields and roles in society. There's considerable sociological evidence pointing to that being the reason masculinity as a cultural construct has become increasingly synonymous with objectifying women and being violent toward them and other men- the "box" of masculinity is growing smaller and smaller.


Being raised by a single mother all my life I am a male femminist not because of gender roles. Conservatives view "egalitarian" in a negitive way they think people should be put into certin classes or groups how ever I disagree how do they know where to put them?

Society has a really negitiave view of femminist men believeing some of us to be homosexual when that is irrelivant though I am omisexual I base my attractions to people but not based on their gender just the person.


Yes, male heterosexuality is an integral part of the construct- the most rabid anti-feminists are often homophobic, as well.
There are other definitions of it as well which are interesting. I being vegan, we had a very interesting conversation once in my gender and American politics course about how a big part of the manhood construct is killing and eating flesh, for instance.
It all connects back to themes of dominance, it would seem.
You saying you're often thought to be homosexual because you're a male who's pro-feminist (IE, doesn't fit into 'the box') reminded me of it-
the same is often said of male vegetarians.

You can see how such types of extreme favor of dichotomy lends itself to the "gender role" view:
"If you're not X, Y, & Z, you're "A, B, & C".


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Joker
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31 Mar 2012, 2:37 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
Some men view Femminism as a threat to their Masculinity society has said that women are weak need that they need a man to protect them that this just isn't true most of my female friends do jobs that men do some of them weld others are fire men cops and a friend of mine is into Mixed Martial Arts that happens to be female women but it should be a sex issue or which gender is better then the other we are all people in the end.


As I've posted before, people who think themselves "egalitarian" and favor "separate but equal" spheres for women aka gender roles
usually do view feminism as a threat to masculinity with some validity- because feminism increasingly encroaches on what they consider to be masculinity itself, that being male domination of certain fields and roles in society. There's considerable sociological evidence pointing to that being the reason masculinity as a cultural construct has become increasingly synonymous with objectifying women and being violent toward them and other men- the "box" of masculinity is growing smaller and smaller.


Being raised by a single mother all my life I am a male femminist not because of gender roles. Conservatives view "egalitarian" in a negitive way they think people should be put into certin classes or groups how ever I disagree how do they know where to put them?

Society has a really negitiave view of femminist men believeing some of us to be homosexual when that is irrelivant though I am omisexual I base my attractions to people but not based on their gender just the person.


Yes, male heterosexuality is an integral part of the construct- the most rabid anti-feminists are often homophobic, as well.
There are other definitions of it as well which are interesting. I being vegan, we had a very interesting conversation once in my gender and American politics course about how a big part of the manhood construct is killing and eating flesh, for instance.
It all connects back to themes of dominance, it would seem.
You saying you're often thought to be homosexual because you're a male who's pro-feminist (IE, doesn't fit into 'the box') reminded me of it-
the same is often said of male vegetarians.

You can see how such types of extreme favor of dichotomy lends itself to the "gender role" view:
"If you're not X, Y, & Z, you're "A, B, & C".


Well I'm glad it doesn't fit into it I am yes pro-feminist my main issues are sexisim. in society, plays a huge role I can see how killing and eating flesh, would also play a role while im not. Vegan I do cut weight by going on a vegitarian diet like when I needed to cut weight for a big wrestling match in high school. I don't have to many role models in my life that are men besides my brother and granfather. Most of the people I look up to just happen to be women I am bigender also and I get teased about it but that's just how I am.



TM
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31 Mar 2012, 2:49 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
TM wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:

It's interesting to see people imagining themselves existing outside the patriarchy,
though I do wonder what systems other than feminist ones they have for theorizing an egalitarian dynamic between men and women-
if they don't favor egalitarian systems, then what problem have they with existing means of analyzing and opposing them, for instance?
How exactly, does one fight gender as a class of oppression through movements which have "nothing to do with gender"?


It depends on what you mean by "egalitarian" if you mean "equal rights and equal responsibilities" then we can never quite get there, because the fact is that women utilize more energy in order to produce offspring and this is offset by males exerting more energy in order to produce resources in order to attract a woman in the first place. Since "producing resources" is a function of "work" and work is ultimately where feminists seem to have most of their cause centered, their wish cannot take place unless a woman elects not to spend energy on producing offspring and focuses on producing resources instead. In the cases where women have made this choice, they are competitive with men.


What? Why do you perceive feminism to be primarily concerned with issues involving work?


Because ultimately that's what it always seems to come down to, women in the workplace is linked to women in the home, female independence is linked to earning enough money to support oneself, accomplishment is measured in economic value, etc. Without economic independence and woman can never be self-reliant.

If feminism at least every time I read about it was more concerned about women's rights in the middle east and Africa, and less preoccupied with what I view as the demands of western women wanting to reap the benefits but have none of the additional responsibilities, I may not view feminism as "female fascism". Note, that I'm not saying YOU, I'm saying feminism as a whole.

TM wrote:
As I stated, I support meritocracy, based on equal opportunities and equal responsibilities. So far, I have yet to meet a feminist who does.

I'm ValentineWiggin. Pleased to meet you. ~handshake~[/quote]

Ok, let me ask you, do you favor gender points to get more women into male dominated studies, requirements for female representatives on boards and in management or employees in a company?



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31 Mar 2012, 2:59 pm

TM wrote:
If feminism at least every time I read about it was more concerned about women's rights in the middle east and Africa, and less preoccupied with what I view as the demands of western women wanting to reap the benefits but have none of the additional responsibilities, I may not view feminism as "female fascism".


Some feminists are similarly quite eager to downplay or deflect the real cause of much harm to women in the world - Islamic male supremacism. Hm, I wonder why this is?



ValentineWiggin
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31 Mar 2012, 3:04 pm

TM wrote:
If feminism at least every time I read about it was more concerned about women's rights in the middle east and Africa, and less preoccupied with what I view as the demands of western women wanting to reap the benefits but have none of the additional responsibilities, I may not view feminism as "female fascism".

Feminist groups are quite active in the middle east and Africa, which you'd know if you ran in many feminist circles.
Who do you think is combatting the hardships women face there?
nobody?
Tequila wrote:
Some feminists are similarly quite eager to downplay or deflect the real cause of much harm to women in the world - Islamic male supremacism. Hm, I wonder why this is?

Some do, I'm sure.
That's one of my major departs from hard line leftism- the left's common unwillingness to indict Islam for it's many horrors.


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


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31 Mar 2012, 3:09 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
That's one of my major departs from hard line leftism- the left's common unwillingness to indict Islam for it's many horrors.


I was referring to Western feminists with this one, not those in the Middle East and much of Africa.



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31 Mar 2012, 3:10 pm

Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
That's one of my major departs from hard line leftism- the left's common unwillingness to indict Islam for it's many horrors.


I was referring to Western feminists with this one, not those in the Middle East and much of Africa.


Me too.


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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31 Mar 2012, 3:11 pm

Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
That's one of my major departs from hard line leftism- the left's common unwillingness to indict Islam for it's many horrors.


I was referring to Western feminists with this one, not those in the Middle East and much of Africa.


What do you hav against Western Feminists I am one?



ValentineWiggin
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31 Mar 2012, 3:15 pm

Joker wrote:
Tequila wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
That's one of my major departs from hard line leftism- the left's common unwillingness to indict Islam for it's many horrors.


I was referring to Western feminists with this one, not those in the Middle East and much of Africa.


What do you hav against Western Feminists I am one?


Usually, people who oppose Western feminism will contrast the issues they focus on with those in the third world-
they have no problem with people opposing FGM or female infanticide, for instance (even if some people here are totally-ignorant of the existence of such groups),
but feel fighting for insurance coverage of birth control or funding for child day care (again, for instance)
is just "uppity", and Western women should just be grateful for not having been born elsewhere.

They also wholly-forget that feminism isn't just concerned with legal and economic issues, but with cultural ones,
so any indictment of the way women are depicted in popular media or treated by mainstream institutions is met with criticism.

I can't speak for Tequila, of course. :)


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 31 Mar 2012, 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Mar 2012, 3:15 pm

Joker wrote:
What do you hav against Western Feminists I am one?


A major one is their refusal to criticise Islam and their primitive values for its barbarity towards women for the obvious reasons.



Last edited by Tequila on 31 Mar 2012, 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Mar 2012, 3:16 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
What do you hav against Western Feminists I am one?


A major one is their refusal to criticise Islam for its barbarity towards women for the obvious reasons.


... what???


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AspieRogue

31 Mar 2012, 3:20 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
TM wrote:
If feminism at least every time I read about it was more concerned about women's rights in the middle east and Africa, and less preoccupied with what I view as the demands of western women wanting to reap the benefits but have none of the additional responsibilities, I may not view feminism as "female fascism".

Feminist groups are quite active in the middle east and Africa, which you'd know if you ran in many feminist circles.
Who do you think is combatting the hardships women face there?
nobody?


The women who actually LIVE in those countries. Though I'm sure there are a few affluent do-gooders from the US and Europe with enough spare time to pitch in and help.

Though I am not muslim and don't approve of everything muslims do, I see no indications any longer that Islam is a real threat to my country any longer(especially since we have a lot more people and muslims are a much smaller percentage of the US population). I will also freely admit an admiration for Islams machismo, misanthropy, and depersonification of God(as force that has no tangible form and is completely nonhuman). But I digress......


Western women are primarily concerned with THEIR needs and wants! Especially since they don't live in Africa nor the Middle East. To reap the benefits and shirk responsibilities is an all-too-human tendency. Women aren't saints, they're just flawed human beings like men are.