What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

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Sand wrote:

Vana wrote



Any restriction on a person's free initiative is a form of slavery. This restriction can come from natural demands such as the need for food and oxygen and to comply with natural processes or it can come from the interaction of an individual with one or more individuals in a social situation. It is a very mild slavery to demand everybody be polite to each other, that we pay our bills, that we do not expose our sexual parts on the street etc. We are slaves to our language, to gravity, to any threats to our status or physiology. In other words, we must conform to all sorts of things to remain alive and function whether we like it or not. Extreme slavery is total subjugation to the will of an individual by physical force or some other powerful coercion to the point of being personally injured. Being a prisoner in the legal sense or even in terribly restricting personal relationships is a form of slavery. The terms "prisoner" and "slave" are not independent. A prisoner is a form of a slave as is an employee or someone in a military unit. There are merely different restrictions and ways of enforcing those restrictions.

Let me see about this. If a hungry person comes to me for food and I insist upon payment, I have enslaved him? Right? That means all restaurants should give away their product. If this were the case, how long do you think we would have restaurants?

Nature demands that we make an effort to feed ourselves and stay alive. Is that slavery?

ruveyn

a prisoner is given human status, which gives you rights

a slave is given property status, which gives you no rights

To be enslaved is to have to obey rigid requirements. Your meager imagination, ruveyn, cannot comprehend that what we accept as normal commerce is a form of coercion. I didn't say it was unnecessary, I merely noted that it exists.

You are correct, the total global police state and the fear-capital that fuels it must expand as certainly as profits must go up.

But, do not fear anarchism. Anarchism is the second last revolution. (The last revolution is the I-less revolution, the revolution without-a-subject, the final subjectless revolution, the revolution of the non-persons will liberate the least among us: the children, the animals, the infirm and ret*d; the final subjectless revolution will be instigated by the disinterested, those beyond fear and want, ie psychopaths.) Anarchism was a viable, intelligent, active and powerful political movement; a revolution of individuals acting independently; and it almost brought down the Empire; this is why anarchism disappeared from school history books, and why the anarchist was framed by mass-media as violent and unrealistic.

Anyone who takes the time to seriously investigate the primary anarchist thinkers such as Leo Tolstoy, Dorothy Day, or Francisco Ferrer will realize that anarchism is a philosophy written very exactly to the moral and Higher order.


Right, this is the origin of the lie of money. Why didn't you just give it to him and then forget it? Nothing is ever owed.

You get the idea. A slave submits to something imaginary (a sign, a symbol, a command). A prisoner is forced, against her will, by something real (physical force).

Officer: Stand up!

Slave: Yes sir!

Prisoner: ...

Very close, except that there is no such thing as "have to" with respect to orders. So, more exactly, a slave follows orders, signs, and commands.

Submit only to Allah!

Last edited by Vana on 23 Sep 2009, 12:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Correct. A prisoner is recognized to have rights (a will), and can only be moved by direct force. A slave acts as without will, (notice that this sentence is a contradiction: 'acts ... without will').

There are lots of "have to"s. See how long you can hold your breath without having to breath.

You make one very basic very fundamental error. You assume the brain-mind is in control of your body. The brain-mind was evolved by the body to protect it and assure it can function. It is an organ like the liver and the lungs and the pancreas. It is a tool of the body and when the body makes demands the brain-mind fulfills is functions by acting on those demands.

Excuses, excuses. The brain? Next you'll start on with atoms! Nothing is above the mind. Be responsible.

You're talking enlightened anarchism.

First you have to get everyone on board.

Or kill all those who won't.

Fire up the ovens?

Excuses excuses. Follow the dialectic through. Yours is the same conclusion as the Khmer Rouge, so they massacred all the city-people. Mao felt re-education was possible: you can 'take the America out of the boy'. Forgive and forget. You can do anything!

It was supposed to be a far-fetched example to illustrate that what you want to accomplish is a VERY very long term goal.

this makes a lot of sense for those of us who work and live alone. I feel very much like a slave right now. I subjugate my own free will every hour of the day to survive. I get underpaid to clean and paint for a living every single day. I hate it. It's dirty, unhygenic work and the boss knows that he underpays but does it anyway knowing that i have few other options for work. I constantly see others work towards their goals and towards doing with their lives what they ultimately want to, but i feel like i'm just surviving. my tiny wage assured that i will never be able to put any money aside, and that i will likely never be able to date or marry... nobody wants to be with a broke aspie. I'm not too sure what a prisoner life would be like but i imagine it to be much better. I dream of someday having the means and courage to live offgrid somewhere where land is plenty and cheap. live my own life alone or with other aspies somewhere.. i think that's the true-est type of freedom I could ever attain.

A prisoner is one who is restricted in has movements and options, either because of war, or as a punishment.

A slave is a chattel, owned for his/her labor. A prisoner is merely detained. A slave must produce an amount of wealth in excess of his/her keep. A prisoner is a burden. A functioning slave is an asset.

ruveyn

Brains! Brains! Brains!

Threads are riseing from the dead, and are on the march!

Slaves and prisoners are two different things, but they are not mutually exclusive, and can overlap.
One could be both at the same time.

There are different levels of slavery. Many workers are slaves, without even knowing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery