Israel/Palestine, how to find out the truth??

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Inuyasha
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19 Mar 2011, 11:28 pm

skafather84 wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Having had the Israel experience I have no love for it.
no matter what the history is.
no matter what the claims are.
no matter what your nationalism or other superstitions are.
the best rational self-interested choice for any Jew (except Meyer Lansky)
is North America.

-Jake

In practice, you are right. In principle, well, that could be argued.

I have chosen not do to aliyah and go to Israel to live. Why? Because life is much more comfortable and safe for me right here, in the land in which I was born. I am Jewish in my soul but I am very American by practice.

ruveyn

ruveyn

fine lets split the difference I will do aliyah again when the mashiach writes me a written invitation.
until then america america america.
and not a cent out of my pocket till then either.
-Jake

Ascent is an ironic name for the action of moving into a hellhole surrounded by some of the worst ghettos in the world.

It is their homeland, furthermore it actually looked like paradise after what they had suffered from the Nazis.

JakobVirgil
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20 Mar 2011, 7:14 am

Inuyasha wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

fine lets split the difference I will do aliyah again when the mashiach writes me a written invitation.
until then america america america.
and not a cent out of my pocket till then either.
-Jake

Ascent is an ironic name for the action of moving into a hellhole surrounded by some of the worst ghettos in the world.

It is their homeland, furthermore it actually looked like paradise after what they had suffered from the Nazis.

Did it look like paradise? Have you been there?
Stop speaking for people you are not one of.
I will tell you what Israel is.
It is Saul doing sacrifice against the will of God.
-Jake

Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 3:02 pm

Compared to a Nazi Deathcamp, yeah it would be Paradise.

RedHanrahan
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20 Mar 2011, 4:05 pm

jc6chan wrote:

Its interesting how people always argue (with no end in sight) of various aspects of Israel/Palestine, with one side saying "thats a lie" about the other side, with perhaps conflicting media sources. Is there actually no way to find out the truth??

Joe Sacco has written two excellent 'graphic documentaries' on the situation as it stands in recent times.

Edward Said and Robert Fisk have both written well on the subject.

Research the 'Zionist movement' and it's historic roots in the shift to European nationalism at the end of the 19th century. This can be hard as there is a load of anti Jewish propaganda passed off as serious scholarship that must be filtered through before one starts to get a grip on the truth, there is also a lot of outright lies from Christian conservatives against the Palestinian case that must also be sorted through - unfortunately. Good Luck!

peace j

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Master_Pedant
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20 Mar 2011, 4:14 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Wrong, the land was under British Control and the British gave the Israelis the land for their country.

Okay, so if the US gov't decided to give you're home city or town back to the Native Americans without commensating you whatsoever and mandating that you couldn't return and instead had to life in some crappy slum or fenced up area elsewhere under constant martial supervison, you'd be a-okay with it?

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Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 4:36 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Wrong, the land was under British Control and the British gave the Israelis the land for their country.

I would be angry, but my anger would be directed at the Government. Furthermore, the Palestinians lost the rest of their land because of the Muslim Countries, not the Israelis.

The Israelis took the land the Muslim countries had stolen from the Palestinians in the 6 Day War, in which the Israelis decided rather than wait for the Egyptians to invade (and they were in the process of attempting to invade) to simply attack. That was when the Israelis took Gaza and the Sinai away from Egypt, Syria lost Golan Heights when they joined Egypt in the fight, and Jordan lost the West Bank.

JakobVirgil
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20 Mar 2011, 6:43 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Wrong, the land was under British Control and the British gave the Israelis the land for their country.

Thank you, so much for the history lesson. I feel soo bad now for my corelgionists being forced to occupy their neighbours.
since you obviously know more then me.
(nothing at all sunk in while I was there other than loss of my Zionism)
What is the view of the Haredim on the subject of israel?
If it is Gods country the people closest to him should know best.
If it is not Gods country and not his chosen then it is just a nation like all others
and as a state it exists by blood like all other nations.
and its nationalism is just as bigoted, stupid and absurd as all nationalisms.

-Jake

Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 6:49 pm

@ JakobVirgil

There would currently be a Palestine if not for the other Arab Countries, btw all the Muslims that stayed when Israel was attacked and remained in Israel rather than fleeing are full Israeli Citizens.

I think the adding of new settlements should stop, and I think peace can be reached with the Palestinians in the West Bank.

pandabear
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20 Mar 2011, 8:16 pm

jc6chan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Um... modern Europe is fine for Jews. Hitler's dead. Do you really think Jews are safer sitting in the middle of the Muslim world than would be in, say, Belgium?

I don't think that looking at modern Europe as "fine" would do. You see, if the Jews created a state their, then another population would be displaced.

After World War II, quite a lot of people in Europe were displaced. A Jewish homeland could have been made out of, for example, East Prussia, which was depopulated of Germans and repopulated with Poles and Russians.

But, that just wasn't in the cards.

Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 8:26 pm

pandabear wrote:

jc6chan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Um... modern Europe is fine for Jews. Hitler's dead. Do you really think Jews are safer sitting in the middle of the Muslim world than would be in, say, Belgium?

I don't think that looking at modern Europe as "fine" would do. You see, if the Jews created a state their, then another population would be displaced.

You think they were wanted around there, these people were the same ones that tried to kill them. Further Europe didn't want them because they would be reminded every time they saw their faces of the Holocaust.

Also you are asking a country that is an economic powerhouse to pack up and move. I think if the Palestinians could actually make peace with the Israelis and attend Israeli schools, they would be in a much better condition economically. Part of the reason no Israeli business sets up in West Bank is because they are afraid of getting themselves killed.

The Israeli economy withstood the late-2000s recession, registering positive GDP growth in 2009 and ending the decade with an unemployment rate lower than that of many western countries.[24] There are several reasons behind this economic resilience, for example, the fact, as stated above, that the country is a net lender rather than a borrower nation and the government and the Bank of Israel's generally conservative macro-economic policies. Two policies in particular can be cited, one is the refusal of the government to succumb to pressure by the banks to appropriate large sums of public money to aid them early in the crisis, thus limiting their risky behavior. The second is the implementation of the recommendations of the Bach'ar commission in the early to mid-2000s which recommended decoupling the banks' depository and investment banking activities, contrary to the then-opposite trend, particularly in the United States, of easing such restrictions which had the effect of encouraging more risk-taking in the financial systems of those countries.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

We are talking the 24th largest economy in the world being located in a country with an area of at most 8,522 square miles. May sound like a lot until you consider the fact that the state of Massachusetts has an area 10,555 sq mi.

pandabear
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20 Mar 2011, 9:11 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

No, they were probably not wanted by a lot of people in Europe. And, many Jews who survived the Holocaust were made to feel quite unwelcome, particularly in Poland.

Quote:

Also you are asking a country that is an economic powerhouse to pack up and move.

Any East Prussians who survived the advancing Red Army were indeed obliged to move, whether they packed up or not.

Quote:

I think if the Palestinians could actually make peace with the Israelis and attend Israeli schools, they would be in a much better condition economically.

Well, go there and make it happen, then. It would be much better than annoying Americans with teabagging.

Inuyasha
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21 Mar 2011, 12:51 pm

pandabear wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

No, they were probably not wanted by a lot of people in Europe. And, many Jews who survived the Holocaust were made to feel quite unwelcome, particularly in Poland.

They weren't particularly wanted in the US at the time either due to the fact Americans would feel guilty too. However, we did give them some military equipment to them while the British tried to leave them without anything to be able to fight with.

pandabear wrote:

Quote:

Also you are asking a country that is an economic powerhouse to pack up and move.

Any East Prussians who survived the advancing Red Army were indeed obliged to move, whether they packed up or not.

I think that Israel has demonstrated that they can and will defend themselves. Plus they have pulled off victories that seemed impossible at the time.

pandabear wrote:

Quote:

I think if the Palestinians could actually make peace with the Israelis and attend Israeli schools, they would be in a much better condition economically.

Well, go there and make it happen, then. It would be much better than annoying Americans with teabagging.

Stop with the dishonest Democrat Talking points already. Anyways, as soon as the Palestinians stop using children as human bombs or brainwashing children into wanting to slit the throat of the first Israeli they come across, I think this idea can be brought up, till then it would be foolish on the part of the Israelis to even entertain this idea.

ikorack
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21 Mar 2011, 7:52 pm

What guilt would we share? And Europe doesn't identify as one nation amongst themselves so there is no reason to expect any country besides Germany would have felt guilty about the Holocaust.

Inuyasha
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21 Mar 2011, 9:25 pm

ikorack wrote:

What guilt would we share? And Europe doesn't identify as one nation amongst themselves so there is no reason to expect any country besides Germany would have felt guilty about the Holocaust.

The US and Britain turned away boats that were full of Jewish people before WW II, many of those people were later killed in Nazi death camps over the course of WW II.

ruveyn
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22 Mar 2011, 9:07 am

Inuyasha wrote:

ikorack wrote:

What guilt would we share? And Europe doesn't identify as one nation amongst themselves so there is no reason to expect any country besides Germany would have felt guilty about the Holocaust.

The US and Britain turned away boats that were full of Jewish people before WW II, many of those people were later killed in Nazi death camps over the course of WW II.

the Ship, St. Louis was a case in point. Do you know who turned it away? FDR, that "good friend of the Jews", that's who.

ruveyn

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22 Mar 2011, 10:19 am

Quote:

Inuyasha wrote:

I think if the Palestinians could actually make peace with the Israelis and attend Israeli schools, they would be in a much better condition economically.

Well, go there and make it happen, then. It would be much better than annoying Americans with teabagging.

Stop with the dishonest Democrat Talking points already.

My apologies to the Democrats. I didn't know that I was using any of their "Talking Points."

Quote:

Anyways, as soon as the Palestinians stop using children as human bombs or brainwashing children into wanting to slit the throat of the first Israeli they come across, I think this idea can be brought up, till then it would be foolish on the part of the Israelis to even entertain this idea.

Do you want Palestinian kids to attend Israeli schools, or not?

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