If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

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AceOfSpades
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02 Aug 2011, 1:26 pm

visagrunt wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
The problem with this argument is - the fetus is not her body. Even the placenta is only half the woman's body.

I'm all for women's rights, I just don't see abortion as being in the class of women's rights. I see it as a contentious life issue, such as the death penalty.


You're being deterministic, here. While the foetus and the placenta might well not be the woman's body, I see that issue as entirely irrelevant. In balancing the mother's right to life, liberty and security of the person (I am using the Canadian formulation of that right, others will need to read this mutatis mutandis), against a putative right held by a being that has not yet become a person in law, there is no argument--the rights of a life in being prevail over putative rights of a life that is not yet a legal person.

But even if we were to create a legal framework in which a foetus' had a right to life, the law would still be obliged to balance those competitive interests. So even if we were to change the law to impute legal personality to a foetus, we would still not have a determination of the instant question, because the same right is being contested by both parties.

Generally speaking, in conflicting disputes, I will come down on the side that best permits both parties interests to be least infringed. That is why I set my political and legal tolerance for abortion at the limit of viability.

Prior to twenty weeks gestational age (based on current medical knowedge and practice), any right to life possessed by the foetus is moot--the death of the mother will necessarily involve the death of the foetus. The foetus cannot, I suggest, be described as having a crystalized right because the foetus cannot exercise that right independently of its physical link to its mother. (As opposed to, say, a profoundly disabled person who can still independently exercise an independent right to life with reliance upon equipment such as a respirator.)
Exactly. I'm happy to see one of the more mature responses to this thread rather than a lot of the s**t slinging that has been going on. Not that everyone else is taking part in the s**t slinging, but it's pretty abundant.

donnie_darko wrote:
[Damn. How different are you from an abuser really, if your compassion is that conditional? I've never got the idea that vengeful people really cared about the victims. I more get the idea they are bloodthirsty but care too much about the law and what people think of them to say such things about people who haven't done anything wrong.
False equivalency. Doing unto a scumbag as that scumbag does unto others isn't equivalent to a scumbag doing unto others as they wish for self-gratification.



blunnet
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02 Aug 2011, 8:43 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
blunnet wrote:
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If I said that people should be legally permitted to be terminated by their mothers until they are 18 years of age, what would you say to that?

Id' say: Non sequitur.


How fitting from someone who has deeply analyzed all of my fallacious misuses of logic within the few months they've been here to provide a non-answer with the misplaced naming of a fallacy.

Really? oh sorry to doubt your reasoning abilities, I was so mistaken to think that giving mothers the legal right to kill their 15 year old children had nothing to do with abortion, even when the fetus in question is within the legal 3 months timeframe. How idiotic of me.



Vexcalibur
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03 Aug 2011, 6:44 pm

Law of unintended consequences: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... ng-better/

Thanks to the far right's push against women's rights, we now have people reporting fake rape cases.

Two options:
1. Ban abortion for everyone and thus admit you just hate women.
2. Let every woman have abortions if she wants even if the sex was consensual.

I'd like number #2.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 05 Aug 2011, 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

iamnotaparakeet
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03 Aug 2011, 7:42 pm

blunnet wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
blunnet wrote:
Quote:
If I said that people should be legally permitted to be terminated by their mothers until they are 18 years of age, what would you say to that?

Id' say: Non sequitur.


How fitting from someone who has deeply analyzed all of my fallacious misuses of logic within the few months they've been here to provide a non-answer with the misplaced naming of a fallacy.

Really? oh sorry to doubt your reasoning abilities, I was so mistaken to think that giving mothers the legal right to kill their 15 year old children had nothing to do with abortion, even when the fetus in question is within the legal 3 months timeframe. How idiotic of me.


Sarcasm ignored, apology accepted. :P If you want to consider whatever is currently legal to be "right", then whatever becomes legal is also "right".



iamnotaparakeet
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03 Aug 2011, 7:44 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Ban abortion for everyone and thus admit you just hate women.


You really think that is anyone's motive for being in favor of the life of the unborn not being cut short?



Raptor
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03 Aug 2011, 8:00 pm

If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

WTF? It's not a simple matter of yes or no to cover every scenario.



Philologos
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03 Aug 2011, 8:25 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

Two options:
1. Ban abortion for everyone and thus admit you just hate women.
2. Let every woman have abortions even if sex was consensual.

I'd like number #2.


Fine - so you like #2. But would you do us all - starting with yourself - a favor by restating indicating

A. your recognition that these are NOT the only available options

B your recognition that banning abortion is NOT tantamount to hating women [Do all women opposed to abortion hate women?]



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03 Aug 2011, 8:29 pm

Philologos wrote:
[Do all women opposed to abortion hate women?]

no

People who think that pro-lifers are inherently misogynistic need to stop being f***ing dipsh**s.


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cave_canem
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03 Aug 2011, 8:37 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Philologos wrote:
[Do all women opposed to abortion hate women?]

no

People who think that pro-lifers are inherently misogynistic need to stop being f***ing dipsh**s.


It is true that not all pro-lifers are misogynistic.

However, there are a large number of pro-lifers who conveniently dismiss the actual implications (physical, emotional, financial) of a woman having to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

To ignore one facet of the issue (ie - the impact on the pregnant woman), and only harp on the other facet (ie - the "rights" of a zef), does not make for a well balanced debate.



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03 Aug 2011, 11:53 pm

In my mind it would be perfectly reasonable for a woman to have an abortion if she became pregnant due to rape. And that's my one sentence answer contribution to this thread.



mechanicalgirl39
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04 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

She should only ever have it if she genuinely wants to. She is more important than abstract principles about the rights of something that is effectively anencephalic and cannot think or feel.


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JNathanK
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04 Aug 2011, 1:26 pm

In that particular case, it should be her choice.



blunnet
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04 Aug 2011, 1:38 pm

Raptor wrote:
If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

No, if she doesn't want to, no woman should be forced to bear the burden of carrying the offpsring of a rapist inside her body for 9 months. Heck, I can think of the likelihood of few pro-life women changing their minds experiencing the situation themselves.



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05 Aug 2011, 8:47 am

I have read news articles about women who did that, and I think they are remarkable people.
It certainly isn't something that should be expected of anyone, though.



Vexcalibur
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05 Aug 2011, 8:55 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Ban abortion for everyone and thus admit you just hate women.


You really think that is anyone's motive for being in favor of the life of the unborn not being cut short?


Favoring the life of the unborn over rights of an actual existent person. Means you put more value on the rights of imaginary stuff than the rights of a woman over her own body. If that's not outright hatred it is stupidity, and I don't think you are stupid.

Specially, if the pregnancy is the result of rape. How would you like to carry a weight for 9 months as a reward for being raped? In addition you will basically live in your puke. Sounds nice to be forced to do that?


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 05 Aug 2011, 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

YippySkippy
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05 Aug 2011, 8:58 am

^ I am pro-life under most circumstances, and I do not hate myself.