How strong is the evidence that Jesus existed?

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Robdemanc
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04 Dec 2011, 8:53 am

MCalavera wrote:

We have evidence Jesus may have been a real person. Mythicism simply doesn't make sense compared to Jesus historicism.

There is evidence that he likely did exist, though. Mythicist Jesus doesn't make much sense compared to historical Jesus.

Plus, Christians are more interested in proving that the supernatural Jesus existed rather than a normal human Jesus because Christians are aware a lot of skeptics don't deny Jesus' existence anyway.

Having evidence that something "may" have happened is no different than saying "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away..." is evidence Luke Skywalker saved the universe.

Christians are chasing after rainbows, they might as well try to proove wizards exist

Robdemanc
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04 Dec 2011, 8:57 am

MCalavera wrote:

But the stories of Jesus are sort of original and not derived from prior myths. That's what you don't seem to be getting.

The stories are "sort of" original? What is meant by sort of? Try to be clear if you want clearer answers.

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04 Dec 2011, 5:42 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

If Jesus existed then he existed as a flesh and bone man just like the rest of us. He was not the messiah, not born of a virgin, didn't walk on water, or turn water to wine. he may have been nailed to a cross but he was not ressurected.

From the sound of it jesus would have been a radical who defied the Jewish norms of the time and the rulers probably got sick of him and had him killed. Then years later his followers put him on a pedastall and started writing of him as though he was some mythical hero.

Here, you're quite close to what experts say.

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I think the Sun correlation is there and was used by Romans to convert large populations of pagans throughout Europe by instilling the jesus story into their version of christianity.

But then this would have nothing to do with what the earliest disciples of Jesus said about Jesus. And I don't recall evidence stating that the Romans had interest in promoting Jesus ... unless, by Romans, you mean Roman Catholics.

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I think there are no interpretations based on evidence about any religion.

Yes, that's what you think. But I think there are much more informed opinions to trust than trust exclusive opinions made by laymen like you and I.

MCalavera
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04 Dec 2011, 5:47 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

Yes very interesting I would say, and grounded in plain observable facts. The same observable facts that were available to our ancestors of the last 50 ,000 years, during which time we masterred agriculture and built civilisations and then made up religions. Humanity has been telling stories for as long as we could speak and were able to provide enough food in order to sit down and speculate for an hour or so. Stories are the main medium for passing on information to each other, down through generations.

What are the observable facts pertaining to what you say about the sun and about the Jesus story being derived from prior pagan myths?

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There can be little doubt that our ancestors, back in times before civilisation, told stories about the constellations, the sun and the moon and the planets. In a time before other distractions the sky would have been the main fascination point of our ancestors. Do not tell me that you have never gazed up at the night sky and been captivated by what you saw on a clear night. Don't tell me you have never noticed the seasonal change in the angle of the sun (unless you live around the equator). These are the things that our ancestors first came to know, the first stories, that would have passed from generation to generation. There are cave paintings that date back 10s of thousands of years showing the sun, the moon, the constellations etc.

A red herring paragraph. This is not what I was disputing.

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While all this may be simply interesting and ad hoc, it shows an obvious progression in the light of religion. It is human nature to rehash old stories and present them anew. It happens all the time. So in my mind religion and religious figures are based largely on older mythical stories, which are based on older mythical stories and so on......

Then how come we don't have evidence for what you say in this primary sources from which one can be certain whether these claims about Jesus being a copycat figure are valid or not?

Why is it that all these ancient documents don't support what you claim?

I think you've been misled.

MCalavera
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04 Dec 2011, 5:49 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

Having evidence that something "may" have happened is no different than saying "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away..." is evidence Luke Skywalker saved the universe.

Except we don't have any evidence whatsoever that Luke Skywalker saved the universe or may have saved the universe even.

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Christians are chasing after rainbows, they might as well try to proove wizards exist

Red herring.

MCalavera
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04 Dec 2011, 5:52 pm

Robdemanc wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

But the stories of Jesus are sort of original and not derived from prior myths. That's what you don't seem to be getting.

The stories are "sort of" original? What is meant by sort of? Try to be clear if you want clearer answers.

Another nice red herring. I only said "sort of" because I don't believe any story these days is 100% original. But it doesn't mean that the key points in Jesus' story were all purely copied/adapted from prior stories.

Even the Jesus virgin birth and resurrection accounts are different from the birth and resurrection accounts pertaining to prior myths (and you'd be surprised how few of the characters even had resurrection accounts).

If you ever took the time to read these ancient myths, you would know.

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04 Dec 2011, 6:54 pm

donnie_darko wrote:

From what I've heard, the main evidence is the Bible and the testimony of Josephus Flavius. There's nothing written (that we know of) about Jesus from his lifetime, which supposedly was from about 5 BC to 30-35 AD.

Of course, a lot of our knowledge of other ancient historical figures is similarly scant. But it still seems kind of suspicious to me. Yet even among atheists, it is seen as a radical view to think Jesus never even existed as a human being.

Do you think it's possible the guy never even existed at all?

I think I heard somewhere that they did find the tomb of Jesus' brother James. If that's true, then that would at least some indirect evidence for you, that Jesus existed. However, if a historical Jesus existed, that does not imply that he was either the Son of God, as christians believe, or that he performed miracles.

MCalavera
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04 Dec 2011, 7:00 pm

I wouldn't trust those who say they found James' tomb until I see some evidence in pictures and videos of the inscriptions or whatever and see if the experts agree that this was a valid find (which I have yet to see).

JakobVirgil
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04 Dec 2011, 7:08 pm

MCalavera wrote:

the brother of jesus part of the inscription is in a different hand.

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04 Dec 2011, 7:55 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

the brother of jesus part of the inscription is in a different hand.

I did not know that!
Then again, there has been fraud for making a buck in Biblical archeology as far back as the Medieval relics trade.

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04 Dec 2011, 9:10 pm

91 wrote:

I fount it interesting that even Ehrman has to deal with these people also.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Wow, I'd like the radio host to himself be interviewed in his own annoying way. I've rarely heard someone sound so condescendingly ignorant, and also so ruthlessly intent on going where the evidence does not lead.
I like how he kept ignoring everything the historian said about his field -- even the basic methodology for examining history which all serious historians use. The host had this expert on his show, presumably because he's an expert, only to reject the expertise he offered, and dispense various passing insults to his guest as he himself avoided serious discussion.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 05 Dec 2011, 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
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05 Dec 2011, 2:45 am

Ragtime wrote:

91 wrote:

I fount it interesting that even Ehrman has to deal with these people also.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Wow, I'd like the radio host to himself be interviewed in his own annoying way. I've rarely heard someone sound so condescendingly ignorant, and also so ruthlessly intent on going where the evidence does not lead.
I like how he kept ignoring everything the historian said about his field -- even the basic methodology for examining history which all serious historians use. The host had this expert on his show, presumably because he's an expert, only to reject the expertise he offered, and dispense various passing insults to his guest as he himself avoided serious discussion.

I wonder if you'd refer to the expert Bart Ehrman when it comes to whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or not.

91
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05 Dec 2011, 3:31 am

MCalavera wrote:

I wonder if you'd refer to the expert Bart Ehrman when it comes to whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or not.

I would certainly have major disagreements with Ehrman but that was the point of putting up the link with him in it. Even someone who would disagree with me on a range of fundamental issues still accepts the basic starting point that Jesus existed.

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Tadzio
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05 Dec 2011, 4:03 am

Did Jesus Exist? Ehrman -vs- Finley, and the switch to Paul as being historical, but not reliable about Jesus being Historical.

It does seem obvious that when the author decided to switch to Paul, the interviewer should have challenged the reliability of Paul's observations and recollections.

From 2Corinthians12:7-9 and Galatians6:17, Paul's "weakness", as he writes to his friends in Corinth 'To keep me from being too elated, a thorn was given me.... Three times I appealed to the Lord about this... ...but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness", and "I carry the stigmata of Jesus branded on my body", Paul indicates more of an acknowledgement of a debilitating affliction, than any boasting of some miraculous sign, "such as the chronic repetition of malaria or the constant fear of epileptic fits".

A strong challenge to Paul's "evidence" supporting any historical Jesus, would reveal the great likelihood of self-verification to match hallucinations.

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Robdemanc
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05 Dec 2011, 7:53 am

MCalavera wrote:

Robdemanc wrote:

What are the observable facts pertaining to what you say about the sun and about the Jesus story being derived from prior pagan myths?

Quote:

A red herring paragraph. This is not what I was disputing.

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We don't have any evidence because we are going back to pre history. We have to use our rational minds to reason how religion has come about. I am in the camp of those scholars who support the idea that modern day religions are elaborations of more primitive belief systems such as astrotheology.

I have yet to find any convincing arguments to put me off this idea. And I can well imagine my ancestors sat around campfires gazing at the night sky and giving names to the constelations (Orion the hunter etc), and making up stories about them. And I think the Sun is just too great a celestial object for them to have ignored and had no stories about, particularly the midwinter phenomenon which would have been a time of great anxiety for them.

If I am misled then I have misled myself. But I am not as misled as the religious out there who believe in Jesus the messiah.

If you want to delve into questionable documents to establish whether a man named jesus existed then good luck to you. I think you are wasting your time.

MCalavera
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05 Dec 2011, 8:02 am

91 wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

I wonder if you'd refer to the expert Bart Ehrman when it comes to whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or not.

But you do realize Ehrman uses the same criteria he uses to determine the likelihood of Jesus existing to determine the likelihood that Jesus may not have been born in Bethlehem.

I think, or rather I'm very certain, you agree with Ehrman only when he agrees with your Christian presuppositions and not because he goes with what the evidence says (which he does more often than Christian scholars do when they're behaving as biased believers rather than neutral scholars/historians). Which is not a fair approach to take.

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