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If you want to argue that rocks and water can feel emotions, go for it - but please don't pretend that there's any scientific validity to the argument.


why not go whole-hog and argue what the Catholic Church does, that birth control and abstinence are wrong becaues it prevents potential humans from coming into being?


Zygote/Embryo/Fetus

I do argue that for the most part. I believe religions esp. the Catholics with their nuns and priest to be genocidal. That said, there is no harm in practicing birth control where the possibility does not exist to kill an embryo or permanently harm or wipe out reproductive capacity.

Seeing as the RCC was castrating kids and does essentially the same to adults I regard them as quite possibly the longest lasting genocidal entity in all of human history... I can't think of an organization that has been genocidal for longer can you? We should start a protest. I bet lots of people like aspies have generally been the ones who suffered the most. We should seek damages for genocide the same way Jews get it from Germany.

Since I don't consider killing zefs to be genocide, I certainly don't consider preventing conception to be genocide. On the contrary, is think that it's essential that we reduce our fertility rate to keep the human population stable.

I didn't say that either. I said exhausting or permanently damaging reproductive cells was a genocide. Killing a conceived embryo, a population of ova/sperm, or murdering a grown man is all murder/genocide to me. However leaving sperm in a condom or somewhere else outside of the womb is perfectly acceptable so long as one is still producing. The same goes for similar circumstances with an ova. Menopause can't be helped, but may someday be reversible along with aging. So we can still have population control, we just can't control it through killing.

Why?

Don't you think that if some 9 months-long biological process happened inside your body you would like to have a say about it?


But as you see, by early pregnancy we are talking about something MUCH closer to non-person than person.



The future. Hey, you should stop eating that fruit right now. There are billions of people that could eat billions of fruit if instead of eating your fruit you would plant it and turn it into a forest of fruits. Because you know, the future is more important than all of us.

The future. It is a vastly overrated thing, you see. The future is so silly sometimes. What if this new life that will supposedly become a human being actually becomes the guy that leaves a bug in the code of a new nuclear plant and kills trillions of people? The future is completely crazy stuff and everything works both ways. That future kid could be Gandi or could be Hitler. It does not matter. Because as of now, it does not exist.

The woman on the other hand, exists in the present and as such has rights in the present. We are 100% sure the woman is a person. Yet somehow nobody likes to talk about it in the discussion and we love to turn the discussion 100% about this mythical new person that hasn't even developed an ass where it can poop.


You seem to be projecting.

The reason this debate exists is that there are people who think they can mandate what happens inside the body of other people. Why? Most likely because they are pricks. Is there another explanation? Ooooh POTENTIAL LIFE for some reason POTENTIAL LIFE is more important than ACTUAL LIFE? Really? It can get quite hard to swallow.

Some people love the idea of pregnancy as punishment for the whore who got sex (even when the pregnancy turns out to be the result of rape). But why? And punishment?, Really? When this woman had sex, what exactly did she do wrong to you? It is almost as if we hated the idea of other people enjoying life instead of us being the ones who do...

And those two arguments are the least stupid ones! God forbid someone brought retroactive abortion! Somehow if abortion would be legal, a time travel thingy would make me and you be aborted through magic or something.

It is quite hard to grasp. I mean really. Somehow we are supposed to worry about the suffering of a cell? Really? And somehow the suffering of this cell is more relevant than the suffering of a real person? And to me, it looks inhumane to force life to be developed to its full potential. Because an unwanted fetus has such a potential to be the kid who ruins his mom's life. What a wonderful potential to live for.

You have a say on getting pregnant. Once you're pregnant, there's a person inside you. Men still have to make payments and can face jailtime for not doing so... We have just as much responsibility.



Is it made of people cells? Will it develop into a person? Haven't we been here already?




Fruit is not a person unless you believe in Jesus.



So how does that give you the right to kill someone? How does anything? How are you going to raise your kids?



Actually the baby starts off using your ass lol.

Anyways, being a person does not grant someone the right to murder. The mythical new person to whom you refer will either turn into a person on its own or abort on its own in your tummy. This is nature. A newborn can no more make a decision to live than an embryo, would kill one?



Potential life is semen and ova, reproductive capacity. Life is life. A human in embryonic form has a habitat of your belly. Take them out of your belly and they die. Leave them there and they will probably live. A newborn requires a suitable living environment to survive, can we take that away and call it an abortion because the baby couldn't decide on life?



Get an artificial womb! Give the baby up for adoption within your own family. It's not a punishment... I think we've been through all of that too. If pregnant was punished, everyone would kill their kids. The problem here is that your mom probably brainwashed you into not getting pregnant by scaring you into believing that pregnancy sucks. If your parents told you it was fun to get pregnant and think of your kids and do stuff for them, you'd probably think differently. But your mom wanted different things for you. Personally I hope my daughter will not be taught that way and that I would be financially able to raise any children my daughter had so she could go to school and such. What if your Dad said, "I don't want you to have a kid, but if you do, I'll take care of them so you can still have a life, but it will be hard on me. That is my responsibility as your Dad."?

Sometimes the headline reads...

"You got laid, you got preggers, then you killed your baby." All that really matters is that you killed your baby. The sex is ok, the pregnant is ok, the killing is not.

Retro abortion? I've asked for it at times, but given a more informed viewpoint, I'd rather opt for voluntary cryogenic preservation. Retro will probably never happen otherwise Hitler wouldn't have happened etc.

I'm not worried about the suffering of a cell, I understand it feels no pain. It's suffering is existential in nature and doesn't affect the argument because of my position on "possible life."

I fell asleep while writing this, hope it's finished

Cause rape does not exist and birth control is 100% effective.

But you are right, you can decide whether to be pregnancy or not. And abortion is one of the methods to enforce that decision power



Nah.

The moment you get pregnant, you got a cell inside you. One like many others. Some weeks after, you got a blob of meat. Like many others. Months later. You got something with a head. Like many others. We can kill ducks and at least they have their senses wired to their heads. As time progresses, it gets closer and closer to a person. But the woman is 100% a person and until 8-ish months, the thing inside her is not 100% a person. It is silly to think the non-person has more rights than the person.



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Is it made of people cells?
[/quote]Just like sperm and nails.

If the woman allows it to by not aborting. But since the host is not willing, it won't develop to a person. Sperm could also develop to a person.


And neither is a zygote.

The point is, that you somehow make a big deal about something that could, maybe, in the future become a person. Who cares? it is in the future. Hey, in the future, this fruit I am about to eat could become trillions of fruit, and feed trillions of people. But who cares? I am not leaving trillions of people starving for eating this fruit.




It doesn't. But since a fetus isn't someone but is something, it is irrelevant to say I don't have the right to kill someone.


An embryo is not a human. There is no such thing as a human in embryonic form.


So? Take your sperm to a suitable environment and it will become a person.



It is not a baby. It is a blob of meat with no person hood. The woman has 100% person hood and this chemical procedure happens to happen inside her body. It is inhumane to request control over another person's body just because you use emotionally-charged terms like baby to describe a blob of meat.



It is 9 months of breeding a fertilized egg so that it becomes a human being. It is ridiculous and it is BS. Pregnancy also means that you might lose your job and career and academic opportunities. And it is a health risk and is going to be detrimental to planned children. The adoption system is collapsed and choke full of unwanted orphans already.


It is absolutely inhumane. You, want so much for a fetus to become a person that you cause a grave sociological problem of filling the world with more orphans. You ruin the career of this woman. You unnecessary suffering.

How about just let the woman abort. If you really are worried about the suffering of a non-person, then encourage the woman to abort as early as possible. Because if abortion happens as early as possible, the thing being killed is less and much less of something resembling a person.

Everybody wins.





Pregnancy sucks when it is unwanted. Do you want 9 months of vomitting? And that's the smallest of the issues here. You seem to have been brainwashed into thinking that pregnancy does not suck.

When the kid is wanted and you have helping hands and there are no complications with the pregnancy, then I guess it is a wonderful thing. But we are talking about unwanted pregnancy here. Probably with the added condiment that the father is a rapist or a freaking irresponsible prick.


Does not matter. Keep abortion legal.

I feel as though your argument has become unreasonable. You've even mod'd my post and cut out logic from my argument. All we really have to argue here is when a person becomes a person.

There is such a thing as a human in embryonic form, you've just been taught to accept the notion that an embryo isn't a person and that such an idea is acceptable. If it was never taught to you that way, you wouldn't believe it.

Please stop arguing for murder and argue for the development of an artificial womb. Seriously, wouldn't that solve all your problems? No vomitting, none of that other stuff, you may still have orphans, but assuming someone in the family is willing to take responsibility for their relation, doesn't that solve the problem? It's all about the social habitat that we create. The reality a person experiences growing up determines how they feel about things. Also wouldn't it be a cool solution to have people raised by robots where there is no family available to raise them?

What about extracting the embryo and putting it on ice to be cultivated in the future or adopted by someone?

There are always better solutions than genocide and murder. So why convince yourself that it's OK. Just think a little bit more.

Webcam, do you have any idea how insulting it is to tell someone that they only believe what they believe because they were brainwashed (not to mention inaccurate)?

Don't worry honey, it would be completely impossible for me to do such thing.



Somewhere close to 8 months.

I have come to this conclusion entirely on my own.

An embryo lacks just about any aspect I can think of being exclusive for people and it has many things that are not exclusive to people.


I am not.
You go develop one. Meanwhile, keep abortion legal.

Abortion currently exists and it solves all the problems (including the orphan stuff) without being murder.

Abortion, for example.

I don't see how else genocide and murder can be justified in someone's mind.

So we're just down to expressing opinions.