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Did Jesus or His followers start a new religion?

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Ragtime
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09 Apr 2012, 1:52 pm

Joker wrote:
The Jews where looking for some one to destroy the roman empire how ever Jesus was a man of peace one of the reasons why the Jews didn't view Jesus as the Messiah.


You're totally right, as far as the first coming. In the second, it will be a different story. He will be King of an everlasting Kingdom estalished on Earth, but before this he will physically war against and defeat the anti-Christ's human forces. So, the Jews had it right, except they confused Jesus' kingly nature from the second coming for being in the first.


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Ragtime
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09 Apr 2012, 1:58 pm

My theologian friend just showed me a couple days ago that, from the words on the sign over Jesus' head on the cross can be taken this acronym: YHVH, which is God's name. "Yeshua haNazarei v'melech haYehudim" (Yeshua of Nazareth, king of the Jews).


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Last edited by Ragtime on 09 Apr 2012, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grebels
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09 Apr 2012, 2:05 pm

Hi Ragtime, Corinthians certainly, but also Paul speaking at Mars Hill. I don't think he was just buttering them up by agreeing up to a certain point. Now here's a fact half of Romans 6 is it, is almost identical to some writing of the Stoic Senneca. I also think some of Paul's writing is Stoic in tone. How is it that John refers to Jesus as the Logos? Was that influence from Philo? At least we know that part of Israel ay the time was Hellenistic.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
The Jews where looking for some one to destroy the roman empire how ever Jesus was a man of peace one of the reasons why the Jews didn't view Jesus as the Messiah.


You're totally right, as far as the first coming. In the second, it will be a different story. He will be King of an everlasting Kingdom estalished on Earth, but before this he will physically war against and defeat the anti-Christ's human forces. So, the Jews had it right, except they confused Jesus' kingly nature from the second coming for being in the first.


Their is much debate about the second coming some people think they raptured first others think they will be left beind to test their faith.



Guybrush_Threepwood
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09 Apr 2012, 2:18 pm

Ragtime wrote:
My theologian friend just showed me a couple days ago that, from the words on the sign over Jesus' head on the cross can be taken this acronym: YHVH, which is God's name. "Yeshua haNazarei v'melech haYehudim" (Yeshua, king of the Jews).


I always wondered what that was...thank you :)

I ceased debating religion when a friend of mine became quite angry when I suggested that the Koran had been written by Mohammed (pbuh). Islam was in fact just a continuance of the religious beliefs held by Arabs since Abraham's time. I have since discovered that this is a falsehood perpetuated by some, yet easily proven false. Strange that it came from a christian, but religion has a strange effect on some. As long as religion can be twisted for the benefit of the few and the suffering of the many, I'll have no part in it...


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09 Apr 2012, 2:18 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


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Joker
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09 Apr 2012, 2:21 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


That is what the Muslims prefer to us Chritians Jews or Sabians as but yes your pretty much right. It is nice that you have knowelege of religoin thouhg you do not follow one yourself at least you know things about it hmm you remind me of Herrgrim and Lecks.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:25 pm

Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


That is what the Muslims prefer to us Chritians Jews or Sabians as but yes your pretty much right. It is nice that you have knowelege of religoin thouhg you do not follow one yourself at least you know things about it hmm you remind me of Herrgrim and Lecks.


I am well educated and versed in history. I also do not make a habit of criticizing things I do not understand


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09 Apr 2012, 2:36 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Joker wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


That is what the Muslims prefer to us Chritians Jews or Sabians as but yes your pretty much right. It is nice that you have knowelege of religoin thouhg you do not follow one yourself at least you know things about it hmm you remind me of Herrgrim and Lecks.


I am well educated and versed in history. I also do not make a habit of criticizing things I do not understand


And I thank you for that I must say this most Atheists are educated on religion at least they criticize it since most of them are educated in the history of religion as a whole not just Abrahamaic Religions. A friend of mine is a secular Pagan but a atheist.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:39 pm

Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
The Jews where looking for some one to destroy the roman empire how ever Jesus was a man of peace one of the reasons why the Jews didn't view Jesus as the Messiah.


You're totally right, as far as the first coming. In the second, it will be a different story. He will be King of an everlasting Kingdom estalished on Earth, but before this he will physically war against and defeat the anti-Christ's human forces. So, the Jews had it right, except they confused Jesus' kingly nature from the second coming for being in the first.


Their is much debate about the second coming some people think they raptured first others think they will be left beind to test their faith.


True. I am of the Pre-Tribulation view, for several biblical reasons.


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09 Apr 2012, 2:45 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
The Jews where looking for some one to destroy the roman empire how ever Jesus was a man of peace one of the reasons why the Jews didn't view Jesus as the Messiah.


You're totally right, as far as the first coming. In the second, it will be a different story. He will be King of an everlasting Kingdom estalished on Earth, but before this he will physically war against and defeat the anti-Christ's human forces. So, the Jews had it right, except they confused Jesus' kingly nature from the second coming for being in the first.


Their is much debate about the second coming some people think they raptured first others think they will be left beind to test their faith.


True. I am of the Pre-Tribulation view, for several biblical reasons.


I have a Old-Testement vew of it.



Ragtime
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09 Apr 2012, 2:54 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


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Lord_Gareth
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09 Apr 2012, 3:01 pm

You get the same anti-Jew rhetoric in the Deep South, though. I'm not entirely certain it's connected to religion so much as religion is used to justify hating Jews.


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09 Apr 2012, 3:03 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
You get the same anti-Jew rhetoric in the Deep South, though. I'm not entirely certain it's connected to religion so much as religion is used to justify hating Jews.


Yes it goes back to a conspiracy theory that the Aryan Brotherhood and the Ku Klux Klan think about the Jews having a lot of infulence in the corporate world and government which is silly of them.



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09 Apr 2012, 3:06 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
You get the same anti-Jew rhetoric in the Deep South, though. I'm not entirely certain it's connected to religion so much as religion is used to justify hating Jews.


Actually, it's over all the world, and always has been. But it is most concentrated in the Muslim Middle East, and Jew hatred is specifically taught to them as part of their religious education. Shall we open up the Koran on the subject of Jew hatred? That's fine if someone wants to, but it's a separate subject from this thread, so a new thread should be started.


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Vigilans
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09 Apr 2012, 3:09 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Christians and Jews share common tenets. They can and should love Muslims, but Muslims differ very importantly in their tenets regarding what is and is not acceptable violence. They even religiously believe they should hate and kill Christians and Jews.


Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" in the Qur'an. Furthermore throughout history they were considered "protected peoples" in the Islamic caliphates. The level of violence described by each Abrahamaic branch is roughly the same.


Well, I just want to reply to say I disagree. As far as an explanation for why, anyone who follows world events will see why. They'll see that foaming-at-the-mouth Jew-hatred in the Arab Middle East is so engrained into their cultures, entertainment, and news media that a person who wishes Jews dead is considered quite normal. Those who love the Jews, however, get severely abused by their own people, if not locked up or executed. Check out interviews with Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, or any other of the many repentant former Muslim terrorists, and you'll get the picture of how they used to think, versus how they now think. I love Arabs, but I hate radical Islam.


Jew hatred has been a part of Arab culture for a very short time. You can blame Zionism for that. While your Christian forebears were busy throwing Jews out, the Ottoman Empire was sheltering them. On the other hand Jew hatred has been a part of your religion's culture since... well, since the beginning.


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do