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Why God stopping the sun in the sky is utterly stupid.

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TM
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15 Oct 2012, 10:00 pm

AngelRho wrote:
TM wrote:
To sum up and end this once and for all, god in this discussion is the bully who grabs your hand by the wrist, smacks you in the face with it and goes "why are you hitting yourself".

Then we're talking about completely different things. I'm talking about a God who punishes the wicked and rewards the faithful.

AngelRho wrote:
TM wrote:
If you're out walking and a ball bounces in front of you and you kick it. God knew that you would kick that ball before he created the Universe. As he knew that, it follows that you did actually have a choice in kicking the ball or not.

But God didn't MAKE ME KICK THE BALL. My life was laid out with a number of possible decisions to be made. I'm the one who made the choices. God just happened to know what I'd do and how it would all ultimately turn out.


Then he created you with the knowing intent that you would do that action. That alone kills your free will argument.

AngelRho wrote:
TM wrote:
If god knows your choice, the second he created the Universe, you have the capability of making a choice, but could never have made a different choice than the one he knew you would make the second the Universe was created.

I disagree. I COULD have made any number of choices. Suppose I chose NOT to kick the ball. Then I COULD have chosen to kick the ball. I don't ordinarily know what I'm going to do until I'm in that situation. I don't know the future. But whether I make choices "in the moment" or if I make choices in a predetermined way according to an established personal moral or ethical code, at some point I have to decide a course of action, and nobody makes me decide or decides those things for me (unless I make the choice for someone to make decisions on my behalf, of course--but even that is something that is ultimately the result of another decision I made). God doesn't make the choice FOR me. Allowing me to make decisions for myself, even if He already knows the decisions I'm going to make, by no means compromises free will nor God's omniscience.


If god knew what you would do, then he made that choice for you when he set in motion the string of events that created you.

AngelRho wrote:
TM wrote:
You cannot "have a degree of free will in your creations" if you know exactly what they will end up doing.

Yes, you can. Knowing what a creation will do is not the same as making the choice for them.


Yes it is if you also created them. If he created you, with the knowledge of what you would do in every given situation in your whole life, then he could have decided to create you so that you would act differently, so by not doing that any action you take is by his intent.


Angelrho wrote:
TM wrote:
At that point, there is no free will, just the appearance of it.

Well, that's solipsism and you're just wasting your time arguing about it.


No solipsism is the idea that the existence of anything outside of your own mind is unsure. I know, philosophers love to argue that other philosophers are engaging in it as a form of reductio ad absurdum, but you sir are obviously no philosopher.

Angelrho wrote:
TM wrote:
Either:
God knows everything - At which point free will cannot exist.
Or he doesn't know everything - At which point free will can exist.

You cannot have it both ways.

False dichotomy. It's possible to know the decisions a person or people will make without acting to influence those decisions.


Free will entails the ability to pick between multiple choices.
If God created you and has the knowledge in advance of everything you would ever do, then it follows that you didn't actually have a choice as you were predetermined to do exactly the things he made you to do.

Read Sam Harris book on free will, I think you'd find it helpful.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 6:05 am

TM wrote:
Then he created you with the knowing intent that you would do that action. That alone kills your free will argument.

Non sequitur. Knowing what is going to happen is not the same as acting to make it so. It is possible that things could have gone another way. God knowing what's going to happen by no means takes away the choices we have.

TM wrote:
If god knew what you would do, then he made that choice for you when he set in motion the string of events that created you.

No, He didn't. It's logically possible to know how things will go without being directly involved. I can read a weather map and know that it's going to rain in the next 5 hours. Knowing it's going to rain is not the same as making it rain!

TM wrote:
Yes it is if you also created them. If he created you, with the knowledge of what you would do in every given situation in your whole life, then he could have decided to create you so that you would act differently...

Which would negate free will or any choice we have at all. God doesn't ordinarily make people for the purpose of making specific decisions for the sake of having everything go the way He wants. We can choose what we want. Just because God knows what that is by no means takes away the choice.

TM wrote:
No solipsism is the idea that the existence of anything outside of your own mind is unsure. I know, philosophers love to argue that other philosophers are engaging in it as a form of reductio ad absurdum, but you sir are obviously no philosopher.

You are engaging in it. Knowing the choices we'll make does not take away the choice nor does it negate our freedom to make it. If free will is just an illusion or apparition, as you said we only have the "appearance of it," then you are suggesting that we are unsure of it outside our minds. That is solipsism. Whether or not I'm a philosopher is irrelevant...it is what it is.

TM wrote:
Free will entails the ability to pick between multiple choices.
If God created you and has the knowledge in advance of everything you would ever do, then it follows that you didn't actually have a choice...

Again, non-sequitur. You HAVE choices.

Look, I'll say it again: There is a difference between knowing what's going to happen and actively influencing what's going to happen. We are free to make whatever choices we want. God knowing what I'm going to do is not the same as God making the decision for me.



DancingDanny
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16 Oct 2012, 6:15 am

Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 7:20 am

DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.

Noted, and thanks for the heads up.



Jono
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16 Oct 2012, 7:57 am

DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.


Based on what exactly? Do you know him?



Jono
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16 Oct 2012, 8:03 am

AngelRho wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.

Noted, and thanks for the heads up.


His reasoning is perfectly valid, you are just not understanding it.

Premise 1. : If everything we do is predetermined/predestined, then there is no such thing as free will.

Premise 2. : If God knows every choice we will make before we make it then everything we do is predestined.

Therefore, if God knows what choices we will make before we make them, we cannot have free will.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 8:34 am

Jono wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.

Noted, and thanks for the heads up.


His reasoning is perfectly valid, you are just not understanding it.

Premise 1. : If everything we do is predetermined/predestined, then there is no such thing as free will.

Premise 2. : If God knows every choice we will make before we make it then everything we do is predestined.

Therefore, if God knows what choices we will make before we make them, we cannot have free will.

First of all, I don't see that there is an incompatibility with predestination and free will. So the first premise is false.

[Even though we haven't expressly mentioned Calvin, it's also important to note that I don't fully buy into the Calvinist idea of predestination. I don't deny that there IS predestination; I just disagree on what predestination is.]

Second, it is possible that God can know what we're going to do without actually determining what we're going to do. Like I said before, I can know that it's going to rain before it rains. Does that mean, just because I knew it would rain, that I caused it to rain? The conclusion is a non sequitur.



ArrantPariah
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16 Oct 2012, 10:32 am

AngelRho wrote:
Non sequitur. Knowing what is going to happen is not the same as acting to make it so. It is possible that things could have gone another way. God knowing what's going to happen by no means takes away the choices we have.


You have a rather circular argument. If God already knows what is going to happen, then things cannot possibly go the other way.

AngelRho wrote:
No, He didn't. It's logically possible to know how things will go without being directly involved. I can read a weather map and know that it's going to rain in the next 5 hours. Knowing it's going to rain is not the same as making it rain!

You don't know for certainty that it will rain. Forecasters always modify their predictions with X% probability. They are open to the possibility that rain will not fall in the next 5 hours. But, if you had created the weather, and knew what the weather was going to be, inerrantly, forever and ever, then that would be the same as making it rain.

AngelRho wrote:
Which would negate free will or any choice we have at all. God doesn't ordinarily make people for the purpose of making specific decisions for the sake of having everything go the way He wants. We can choose what we want. Just because God knows what that is by no means takes away the choice.

Yes it does. There is no point in having a choice if someone else already knew what that choice was going to be.

AngelRho wrote:
Look, I'll say it again: There is a difference between knowing what's going to happen and actively influencing what's going to happen. We are free to make whatever choices we want. God knowing what I'm going to do is not the same as God making the decision for me.

Yes it is.



Last edited by ArrantPariah on 16 Oct 2012, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

TM
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16 Oct 2012, 10:53 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Non sequitur. Knowing what is going to happen is not the same as acting to make it so. It is possible that things could have gone another way. God knowing what's going to happen by no means takes away the choices we have.


You have a rather circular argument. If God already knows what is going to happen, then things cannot possibly go the other way.

TM wrote:
No, He didn't. It's logically possible to know how things will go without being directly involved. I can read a weather map and know that it's going to rain in the next 5 hours. Knowing it's going to rain is not the same as making it rain!

You don't know for certainty that it will rain. Forecasters always modify their predictions with X% probability. They are open to the possibility that rain will not fall in the next 5 hours. But, if you had created the weather, and knew what the weather was going to be, inerrantly, forever and ever, then that would be the same as making it rain.

TM wrote:
Which would negate free will or any choice we have at all. God doesn't ordinarily make people for the purpose of making specific decisions for the sake of having everything go the way He wants. We can choose what we want. Just because God knows what that is by no means takes away the choice.

Yes it does. There is no point in having a choice if someone else already knew what that choice was going to be.

TM wrote:
Look, I'll say it again: There is a difference between knowing what's going to happen and actively influencing what's going to happen. We are free to make whatever choices we want. God knowing what I'm going to do is not the same as God making the decision for me.


Yes it is.


Could you please alter your post quotes as those are AngelRho's arguments, I really don't want that attributed to me. In fact just seeing my name next to them makes me want to crawl into my shower and stay there until I feel clean again.



Last edited by TM on 16 Oct 2012, 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

TM
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16 Oct 2012, 10:54 am

Jono wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.


Based on what exactly? Do you know him?


I'm a narcissist because I refuse to put DancingDanny's subjective and irrational arguments on the same level as those of some of the greatest minds of human history. Am I the only one who sees the irony?



ArrantPariah
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16 Oct 2012, 11:05 am

AngelRho wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.

Noted, and thanks for the heads up.


Labeling someone a "Narcissist" does not make one's arguments automatically wrong.



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16 Oct 2012, 11:07 am

TM wrote:

Could you please alter your post quotes as those are AngelRho's arguments, I really don't want that attributed to me. In fact just seeing my name next to them makes me want to crawl into my shower and stay there until I feel clean again.


Done. I wasn't doing a good job of keeping track of who was arguing what.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 11:11 am

TM wrote:
Jono wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.


Based on what exactly? Do you know him?


I'm a narcissist because I refuse to put DancingDanny's subjective and irrational arguments on the same level as those of some of the greatest minds of human history. Am I the only one who sees the irony?

I don't know what you're referring to here, but on the surface it looks as though you're qualifying DancingDanny's positions as inferior (subjectively, I might add) because he's not one of the "greatest minds." It may very well be ironic, as you put it, but it's also ironic that for all your claims of rationality that you're risking making an appeal to authority.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 11:16 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.

Noted, and thanks for the heads up.


Labeling someone a "Narcissist" does not make one's arguments automatically wrong.

Agreed. That would be ad hominem. Even if the label is accurate, it doesn't mean he's automatically wrong. But if I allow the possibility that I'm arguing with a narcissist, then it may help me understand why it seems to me he's being unreasonable. Perhaps my time is better spent elsewhere if such is the case.



TM
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16 Oct 2012, 11:25 am

AngelRho wrote:
TM wrote:
Jono wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
Angel, I'm going to save you the time of arguing with TM. He is a narcissist.


Based on what exactly? Do you know him?


I'm a narcissist because I refuse to put DancingDanny's subjective and irrational arguments on the same level as those of some of the greatest minds of human history. Am I the only one who sees the irony?

I don't know what you're referring to here, but on the surface it looks as though you're qualifying DancingDanny's positions as inferior (subjectively, I might add) because he's not one of the "greatest minds." It may very well be ironic, as you put it, but it's also ironic that for all your claims of rationality that you're risking making an appeal to authority.


No, I'm disqualifying his positions because he's argued them purely based on his subjective opinion, which as I've pointed out in way too many posts at this point, is contrary to subject matter experts and subject matter experts consensus.



AngelRho
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16 Oct 2012, 11:33 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Non sequitur. Knowing what is going to happen is not the same as acting to make it so. It is possible that things could have gone another way. God knowing what's going to happen by no means takes away the choices we have.


You have a rather circular argument. If God already knows what is going to happen, then things cannot possibly go the other way.

Still doesn't change that we are allowed to make choices.

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
No, He didn't. It's logically possible to know how things will go without being directly involved. I can read a weather map and know that it's going to rain in the next 5 hours. Knowing it's going to rain is not the same as making it rain!

You don't know for certainty that it will rain. Forecasters always modify their predictions with X% probability. They are open to the possibility that rain will not fall in the next 5 hours. But, if you had created the weather, and knew what the weather was going to be, inerrantly, forever and ever, then that would be the same as making it rain.

It was just an illustration. The point is that merely knowing a future event on its own does not cause that future event.

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Which would negate free will or any choice we have at all. God doesn't ordinarily make people for the purpose of making specific decisions for the sake of having everything go the way He wants. We can choose what we want. Just because God knows what that is by no means takes away the choice.

Yes it does. There is no point in having a choice if someone else already knew what that choice was going to be.

Well, it doesn't take away the choice. And there is a point. God cannot be said to be a just God without there being a choice. But it would be unjust of God to force a decision other than what a person would make, anyway. God has no choice but to let human decisions stand, otherwise He contradicts Himself by having an inconsistent standard of justice.

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Look, I'll say it again: There is a difference between knowing what's going to happen and actively influencing what's going to happen. We are free to make whatever choices we want. God knowing what I'm going to do is not the same as God making the decision for me.

Yes it is.

No it isn't.