James Brady Dead At 74.

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09 Aug 2014, 6:56 pm

Raptor-

The reason why Democrats support gun legislation is quite simply for the cynical reason because the Republicans support it, and so the Democrats can pull in the gun regulation crowd. Same reason why the Republicans aren't big on civil rights or gay marriage - to counter the Democratic party plank, and to scoop up support of the anti-civil rights/anti-gay crowd.

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09 Aug 2014, 7:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Disregarding all that democrap and repugnican gibberish, lets just focus on civil rights and even gay rights for a moment. The right to keep a gun or guns in the pursuit of happiness and/or to protect oneself is a civil right. Just because it does not specify race or gender does not make it any less of a civil right. If you're against people owning guns then you're against blacks being able to defend themselves if being hounded by the KKK or gays from being pistol whipped then tied to a fence to be left to die, to name a few things that may have been prevented.
This gets back to your dogged determination to stick to the party line.
"If the party hasn't included the right to bear arms in it's narrative on civil rights then by George it's NOT a civil right!"
:roll:

I really don't know why I bother. Even if you do "capitulate" it'll only be until the next time......

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09 Aug 2014, 10:14 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I really don't know why I bother. Even if you do "capitulate" it'll only be until the next time......

That's the thing you and Dox keep accusing me of - denying people the right to self defense. I have never - - NEVER - denied people the right to self defense. I have never - - NEVER - - denied people the right to own guns. I just think if you own and use a weapon of such destructive and lethal power as a gun, then the state has a responsibility to protect the rest of us by insisting you qualify as a law abiding, mentally sound citizen.
And incidentally, it was your demigod, Reagan, who had pushed though a law as governor of California to keep guns out of the hands of blacks when they were struggling for civil rights. It seems conservatives champion gun control when it suits them.

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sly279
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09 Aug 2014, 10:39 pm

the never ending fight. he won't change his mind, I rather don't see the point.

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10 Aug 2014, 12:49 am

sly279 wrote:

the never ending fight. he won't change his mind, I rather don't see the point.

(Sigh) Doubtlessly true.

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Dox47
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10 Aug 2014, 1:25 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, I admit I get dragged into arguments about guns, which is a subject I honestly could care less about, save to keep the most people safe from death and injury.

If that were truly the case, wouldn't you study the issue to see how best to go about that, rather than ignorantly popping off in a way that demonstrates to those of us who actually understand the subject to dismiss your entire point of view? Also, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to comment, it's not like you have anything original or helpful to add.

Kraichgauer wrote:

But regarding withholding money from people's paychecks so they don't go hungry and homeless when unemployed or retired has a proven record. I challenge you to prove me wrong on that point.

That's not the argument we're having, I'm not interested in debating dueling economic theories, I'm interested in pointing out the way you portray anyone who disagrees with you as callous and malicious despite your own ignorance on the topics you comment on. Way to ignore the substance of criticism and throw up a red herring, again, still.

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Dox47
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10 Aug 2014, 1:38 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I would have at least made reference to any of their passing, as it's a news worthy event. Had it been Charlton Heston, I certainly would have lavished praise on his movie career, and on his civil rights involvement.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt62064.html

Too bad you weren't around back then, the thread was full of liberal a**holes pissing on the man's grave because of politics, started by none other than a then moderator. This is actually a pretty good snapshot of what WP was like when Raptor and I first joined, and might help you understand why neither of us has any patience left for stupidity and ignorance on the issue.

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10 Aug 2014, 1:41 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

That's the thing you and Dox keep accusing me of - denying people the right to self defense.

Actually, what I keep accusing you of is being an unthinking partisan who doesn't know what he's talking about but is certain of his own righteousness, I don't recall ever having accused you of being anti self defense.

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10 Aug 2014, 1:54 am

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

That's the thing you and Dox keep accusing me of - denying people the right to self defense.

Well, it certainly seems your friend Raptor has. And who says I'm unthinkingly partisan? The positions I stand by are those I believe are right. If the Democrats pull some stunt I think is egregious, I'll say so. But so far, they've been representing my interests much better than the Republicans or the Libertarians.

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10 Aug 2014, 2:01 am

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, I admit I get dragged into arguments about guns, which is a subject I honestly could care less about, save to keep the most people safe from death and injury.

Kraichgauer wrote:

But regarding withholding money from people's paychecks so they don't go hungry and homeless when unemployed or retired has a proven record. I challenge you to prove me wrong on that point.

Do I not have the right to respond to an attack on my views? You seem to think I ought to just roll over and not continue arguments.
And as for "dueling economic theories" - that's where the argument led me. No red herring here when explaining my position. And when conservatives do call for ending social security, and turning medicare into a limited voucher system, it is most certainly "callous and malicious."

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10 Aug 2014, 6:16 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Again, this /\ contradicts this \/.

Quote:

I just think if you own and use a weapon of such destructive and lethal power as a gun, then the state has a responsibility to protect the rest of us by insisting you qualify as a law abiding, mentally sound citizen.

You want the state to in effect suppress that right when no one has been able to prove the value in what you propose other than "I want", "I think", or "do it for the children". It's not that far off from the voter suppression you harp on at every opportunity.

The reason I ping on you over stuff this is isn't in an attempt to bully or troll you but because underneath your partisan outer rapper I beleive you to actually be capable of making a sound judgment on this topic and not to habitually fall back to the party line on it. I cannot say that about most or all of the other dyed in the wool gun haters we have here. I can grudgingly respect opinions about distribution of wealth and socialised medicine to name a few. I don't f*****g agree with them but I can grit my teeth and generally respect the position while arguing against them. I cannot for one goddamn second respect any opinion regarding this gun control obsession that some people are afflicted with. It is the one thing, unlike distribution of wealth and socialised medicine, etc. that an argument cannot be made in favor of. Keep that in mind.
Rant over.

Quote:

And incidentally, it was your demigod, Reagan, who had pushed though a law as governor of California to keep guns out of the hands of blacks when they were struggling for civil rights. It seems conservatives champion gun control when it suits them.

Oh please! Not Reagan again....... :roll:

The only reason most people voted for him was because anything had to be better than that Georgia simpleton he replaced.
Demigod my ass.

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Kraichgauer
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10 Aug 2014, 12:16 pm

Well, thank you for thinking so highly of me. But seriously, I don't have any sort of anti-gun obsession - I just think if you're going to use and own a deadly weapon as a firearm, you should qualify for it. I don't see how that's any different from the opinions of responsible gun owners. And it's not those responsible gun owners who I have a problem with, but rather the nutjobs who think mass shootings on the news are "false flag operations" by the Obama administration to enslave us - going to the extent of uttering the most vile and hurtful things, as that the families of the dead are really actors, and that the victims had never existed.
And yes, the far right has deified Reagan since he left office, imagining him to have been the virgin born son of Ayn Rand and the Holy Spirit! The truth is, Reagan wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell if he ran as a Republican today.

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Dox47
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10 Aug 2014, 12:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, it certainly seems your friend Raptor has.

Example?

Kraichgauer wrote:

And who says I'm unthinkingly partisan? The positions I stand by are those I believe are right. If the Democrats pull some stunt I think is egregious, I'll say so. But so far, they've been representing my interests much better than the Republicans or the Libertarians.

I do, and you prove my point with threads like this, where you openly admit to not caring about the issue while still feeling obligated to spout the party line, or in threads where a Democrat is criticized and you immediately jump in with some moral equivalency aimed at the Republicans, or the part where you are simply unable to process critics of Democrats as anything but supporters of Republicans.

It's all well and good to support who you think is best for you, where you cross the line is that you think you know whats best for everyone and make judgments about them, e.g. that they're brainwashed to go against their own interests, when they have differing opinions than you do, when you're not qualified to render that sort of judgment on anyone.

As to egregious Democratic stunts, I must have missed your threads criticizing Obama for breaking every campaign promise he ever made, cozying up to Wall Street, spying on the entire world, leading from the rear on gay marriage, cracking down on medical marijuana, persecuting whistleblowers and the press that enables them, killing American citizens without due process, etc. Try and answer without saying 'well Bush did it too', especially since he actually didn't on a number of these things.

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10 Aug 2014, 12:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Do I not have the right to respond to an attack on my views? You seem to think I ought to just roll over and not continue arguments.

Did I say that you don't have the right to respond? I suggested that you respond intelligently in a way that you can actually defend rather than the nonsense spouting that is your norm, and maybe even assimilate new information into your positions, but apparently I asked too much.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And when conservatives do call for ending social security, and turning medicare into a limited voucher system, it is most certainly "callous and malicious."

Maybe to partisan idiots incapable of understanding how anyone of sound mind and good character could disagree with them, to the rest of us it's simply a different approach to a problem that can be rationally argued.

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10 Aug 2014, 12:55 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, it certainly seems your friend Raptor has.

Example?

Kraichgauer wrote:

I was talking about why the Democrats take a gun control stance for political reasons, not my own.
As for criticizing Obama - as a matter of fact, I had agreed with you concerning his spying on citizens and cracking down on whistle blowers in previous threads. But the fact remains, Obama is infinitely better than his predecessor W., and certainly better than McCain or Mitt the plastic Mormon. But in regard to gay marriage, leading from the front or from behind hardly matters to me, as he's come clean with the American public and has endorsed gay rights. Remember, for the longest time, Lincoln had denied any plan to end slavery, till the time was opportune for him to act on the issue.

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10 Aug 2014, 1:00 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Do I not have the right to respond to an attack on my views? You seem to think I ought to just roll over and not continue arguments.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And when conservatives do call for ending social security, and turning medicare into a limited voucher system, it is most certainly "callous and malicious."

Would I be asking too much of you to even consider gun control? Have you considered the possibility that gun control advocates simply have a "different approach to a problem that can be rationally argued?"
And yes, from the way you jump on my posts with such venom implies you think I hardly am worthy of offering a response.

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