Do you believe in God?

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No, not a few legitimate criticisms of religion. Instead criticizing religion based on some people abusing religion. In addition, you have shared with me nothing new or useful, that I also have not heard.

It's quite alright, man. Now I see where you were coming from. Agreed then.

And I have a hard time debating such issues in real life and online in text. So you are not alone.

I don't mind reasonable discussion and "what if" scenarios, when I have time to breath and think. Time is too short for me to do that these days, though.

In other words, you are biased from the start.

A true scientist NEVER takes a bias when looking at things. If you have that... you cannot view things from a truly logical point of view.

Also? FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME, you're missing the point, and the reason why people are angry at you. Your comments infer that others are stupid, inferior. You even infer this in the very comment I'm now quoting. Why, exactly, cant you see how this is offensive? Of COURSE people are going to be angry with you.

And honestly? You're just being part of the problem. This is EXACTLY the crap I'd been talking about, with people on BOTH sides acting like jackasses towards each other, because each thinks they are superior to the other. It's pathetic.

If you stop acting like a child, the anger you face will vanish.

I get that you dont like religion. We all get it. And it's FINE.

But stop acting like that towards people. Particularly if you want anyone to actually listen to you.

Because right now? You sure dont seem very superior to me. You seem more like a schoolyard bully, picking on others because they are different. Because they dont think in the way you do. Because they have their own beliefs and ways of looking at things that do not match yours. How superior is THAT?

Not very.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

And like you, I aint so good about this in person, verbally. I've just been on the Net for far too long... I'm too used to communicating this way rather than verbally. It's hard to really get into a "deep" conversation IRL, unless it's with immediate family.

Which is kinda frustrating, yeah?

Exactly!

100% no. If I was to be thankful for anything and worship something, it would be the sun, moon, water, plants, animals and the earth.

Religion is the root of all evil and messes with weak people's heads. Religion is for weak people who are scared of death.

I'm not discussing this, for the same reason I don't discuss the tooth fairy. It's bullfeaces.

Treat people how you want to be treated. Don't let people mug you off. Help others

Yet you came in here to tell people how weak they are...



And... THAT... after you just called people weak, and...

What in the numerous hells does "treat people how you want to be treated" have to do with the topic at hand anyway? READ the damn topic. This isnt about the behavior of religious radicals. And, again, there are plenty of atheists who are every bit as bad as them. There are other topics for that discussion, too.

I just...



That is all.

I have to disagree. Certain some of the main strains of Christianity & Islam can be considered evil and always have been post-Jesus, but your view is biased if you think all religion is the root of all evil. I realize you don't want to be part of the discussion, but you owe it to your worldview to read up on some of the other religions that have existed across the world and in history. Some were crucial for human survival, others were extremely important for the protection of complex practical knowledge across generations and thus insured that humans would prosper. And even today, when the primary religions such as Southern Baptist, Catholic and much of Islam garner profit for their leaders and stoke the egos of many of their followers via teachings of anger, fear, exclusion and hatred...there *are* religions based on things like being kind to *everyone*, being *generous* and trying to keep humanity from wiping itself out of the ecosystem. Some of them are even Eco-friendly and in fact quite nature-respectful instead of nature-owning. And some even consider nature to be enough of an interconnected, complex system that Nature itself is a deity (just for the most part not a human-looking or even anthropomorphized one).

Name one.
Also, just because someone says religion is a source of evil doesn't mean they mean it's the source of all evil.


I was attempting to defend my position when you had a s**t fit. However, by harping on proof, you reveal a misunderstanding of how science (or debate) works. There are precious few solid proofs outside of mathematics. Remind me again what I'm supposed to be proving? I'm not proving, I'm persuading.



I did no such thing. I asserted the superiority of my argument, as one does in a debate. It's no big deal. Of course most things I post are my opinion, that's a trivial statement. But the beliefs of others aren't sacred. I have no problem trying to poke holes in them. If someone is too thin skinned to handle that, maybe go watch some cartoons or something.



I disagree, religion is a direct result of faith (mostly in God). If religious belief had no consequences, I wouldn't be so concerned about it.



Again I disagree. My complaints about religion aren't necessarily about religion being misused (although religion is to blame for most of that too). Even when it's used as intended, it has harmful consequences.



Atheism has no particular dogma or holy book. I'm sure most ideologies can be used for evil. However, my point is that religion is often evil even when not misused.




I never said all religious people act like that. I'm sure there are religious people who are fine, good people. In fact I don't have any friends who aren't religious. But religion makes otherwise good people do bad things, and believe bad things.

...


Nonsense. The mother that cuts off her daughter's clitoris wouldn't have found something else to cut off if she wasn't religious. The parents that disown their gay son because the Bible tells them it's evil wouldn't have disowned him for some other reason. These are stories from everyday modern life on this planet.

I'm not pretending to be superior. I have a point of view that is open to discussion. With people, I certainly don't judge them to harshly just for their religious beliefs, even if I reject the belief as unreasonable. With ideas, I question the basis of the idea. If the origin of the idea is faith, then I'm free to point out it's not reasonable. It doesn't mean I think I'm better than you. I just want to help the world transcend the bonds of religious teaching. I see every religious person as a potential atheist. I understand that the average Christian is probably a fine person who wishes no evil on others. But when your formative text endorses slavery, misogyny, genocide, and substitutionary atonement (and punishment) for the sins of others, it's a wonder we made it out of the middle ages.

Hi Edenthiel,

Though I don't agree with much of what you say, I appreciate that you are not provoking and belittling others, and simply adding your thoughts to the discussion.

I think you do have a point on one thing. When you mention the word "post-Jesus". It breaks my heart that a substantial amount of those who claim to be Christian totally ignore most of what Jesus taught, even some of the most essential things.

Perhaps if more people had been real or true to the faith throughout the centuries, then there would not be so much fuel for the anti Christian fire that seems so prevalent these days. Well that seems logical at least.

There are so many good and wonderful things that Jesus commanded that I ask Him to make true in my heart.

For instance, how would the world be like of everybody follows this teaching of Jesus wholeheartedly:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12 NIV

I don't have much time, but just wanted to share that thought.

You have a blessed evening.

Allright then,

Here we go:

No, you're not.

Again, WHY is this so hard to understand?

You having a different viewpoint ********ISNT THE PROBLEM HERE********.

I dont know how much more I can EMPHASIZE that.

But the POINT is that you're belitting others. And yes, by saying your position is oh-so-superior, you are indeed inferring that other INDIVIDUALS are not, since they do not follow your thinking. Even if you dont truly intend that, at least TRY to consider your words, but we'll get to that more later in the post.

Also, what I said here stands: PROVE IT. There's a reason I keep saying that, but we'll get to that a bit further down as well.

I though at least am willing to admit when I dont 100% know something, as in this case. When someone cannot do that... they appear extremely arrogant. Best keep that in mind. I prefer to just say "I havent the foggiest damn idea". I say that about a great many things. Which, sure, often doesnt put me in a very bright light, but it's the truth.




Cartoons? ....really? You're going to resort to that sort of comment? And you say you're not here to insult others, eh? ....Fascinating. Tell me more about how NOT insulting that's meant to be.

Hopefully you're not going to spout more lines like THAT one.




Ah, but you are, rather, looking at only SOME of the "consequences". Specifically, the ones that benefit YOUR arguement alone.

How about the people who feel GUIDED by their religion, and thus devote themselves to a life of helping others that need it? You ever think of that? I've known people like that in my life. Those who are religious... as in, actual priests, and even a nun... these being relatives of mine and this leads them to care about others, to share what they have with the needy, to HELP people. This is something religion can do. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to interpret it. And what's more, those people in my life, they dont bring religion into conversations that have nothing to do about it. Unless directly asked, they usually wont even mention it; there IS a time and a place, and there ARE individuals that understand this; sadly, the hyper-vocal ones tend to give the other impression (by being really annoying).

In other words, the mere existence of these individuals... people who are guided by their belief to be good, to do good things, and who DONT try to push what they believe onto others... instantly disproves the idea that religion is all bad and only has bad consequences. You cant have good people as a part of something that's all bad.

Or is that a convenient little hole in your theories? Dont tell me: The other part of the theory is that a person doing that has a truly sinister plan hidden in that little agenda, right? Because that's what religion does to people, right?

I at least am able to admit that there are ALWAYS two sides to something. You're clearly not an idiot, I can see that you have intelligence, there's no doubt about that so I think you know this as well, at least on some level. But again, you conveniently avoid that part in your effort to condemn a belief that you do not share. Why? WHY do that?

I'm not sure if I mean that as a rhetorical question or not.




See above.



When I said that even atheism can be abused.... did you REALLY think I was speaking of some holy book? Oh good grief. That has nothing to do with it... and I think you know it.

No, what I meant was, oh... say, people going around and insulting others for their beliefs. Belittling them. Or, going further, prosecuting them. Fighting them. Oppressing them. You think this sort of thing doesnt happen, coming from atheists? Open your damn eyes. It comes from ALL sides. As I said: it can be just as abused. Any viewpoint can. There are those who believe that atheism is every bit as evil as you believe religion to be. And considering how some atheists out there act... the loopy ones... it's no wonder that they think that way. Just like it's no wonder that there are people that think Christians (or whatever) are that way.

But not just that: people have this inability to accept that there might just be other sides to things, and that just because THEY themselves do not like those other sides... it means those other sides are wrong, bad, evil! Even if there are individuals, as direct proof, that completely counteract and destroy that idea.





You DID say that though. Whatever happened to "nothing good ever comes about it"? Which, again, I pointed out that there are people for whom nothing but GOOD comes from it. And it's not like individuals like the ones I mentioned are RARE. Again though, conveniently avoided. There's only ONE side to it, right? Only the bad. ONLY the bad.



Are you so sure about that?

In situations like that, it's often genuinely bad individuals using religion (or whatever) to "excuse" their behavior. This isnt exactly an uncommon thing, and religion sure as bloody hell isnt the only thing to be used as a convenient excuse. It allows them to insert a reason into something that they already were going to do. So that they feel justified. So that they dont feel bad about themselves. Or so that others dont see them for what they are...

That father that disowns his gay son? You think that's JUST because of religion? Having watched that happen more than a few times... I can say, that's very rarely the only reason. It's usually pushed forward as THE reason, but people like that have a tendency to try to hide their REAL reasoning, since they know how it'll make them look. Alot of them are, frankly, bigots. Deep down, this is what they are. The idea of their "religion" being offended is often to cover up something like the fact that it's their MASCULINITY that is offended. I mean, holy snotballs, Batman, if the guy's son is gay, the guy himself might not appear as MANLY, because he's related! Oh noes! If you dont believe THAT one happens... you havent been out in the world very much.

Or sometimes it's just that they cant tolerate someone that goes against the norm. If you think THAT one doesnt happen, you havent been out in the world AT ALL.

And always, always... it is easy for these people to use excuses. And religion, or similar things, is one of the easiest excuses of all. Even if, in truth, they ARENT actually religious whatsoever. A convenient excuse is still a convenient excuse, including when it's an outright lie.



THIS. This is where we come to the core of what I always try to point out in this situation.

Understand: Just as you have your own personal reasons, and logic, and thinking that leads you to be an atheist, so does everyone else that has a different belief. And just as your conviction in the idea is strong, so is theirs. If you think that what you're doing is REALLY going to change their minds... think again. You saw the anger spike, yes? I dont mean just from me, I *always* sound like this (no, seriously, I call myself Misery for more than one reason; I sound like this pretty much non-stop... probably annoys some people, but I aint gonna try to be something I'm not). That's the usual true result to someone being told that they believe the wrong thing. Particularly when you LACK PROOF TO SHOW THEM OTHERWISE. Which, as I pointed out... you do. Their own experiences may be "proof" to them, and simply citing a lack of evidence (which, again, isnt evidence... that anti-sense again there) at them is basically just telling them "you're an idiot for believing that". That's how that comment is perceived, wether you see it or not, wether you intend it or not, THAT is how it comes out.

Maybe it's silly for people to take it that way at times. Maybe sometimes people need thicker skins. In these ideas, I agree with you. Particularly these days, where if you so much as tell someone that they have their shoes on the wrong foot, they violently explode into an axe-wielding tornado, because how DARE you insult them by suggesting they made a mistake (or whatever).

But stomping on someone's beliefs... intentionally or otherwise... isnt like a normal insult. That person may be the sort where a normal insult just bounces off and earns the jerk in question just a look of exasperated disdain. Or even no reaction at all. But to challenge something that's at the core of who they are... (and that's often what religion, or even just personal beliefs, for it doesnt always have to be related to "religion" in full, is to someone)... particularly when they did NOT ask your opinion... is rarely taken well. That one there is a source of rage for a reason.


And that's why I've been repeating this over, and over, and over: It's fine to have your differing viewpoint. It's ABSOLUTELY FINE. But to start to state that other beliefs are idiotic, foolish, stupid, or even that they MUST change because of COURSE that they believe is evil and will doom us all, is to insult anyone nearby that has those beliefs... and again, it's NOT a normal insult. It is not. Again, wether or not you think that aspect is silly is totally irrelevant. It's something that NEEDS to be considered. And because it isnt, well.... let's just say, there's a reason why so many "debates" about this turn into flame wars. And I mean real flame wars, the sort with screaming obscenities. On ANY other forum, this topic would have already become this at this point. I dont expect it'll happen here. At least, not yet. This isnt the sort of place, and we dont have that sort of jerk here (er... probably). Things flare up from time to time as expected, but I cant remember the last time I saw a true, nasty flame war here.

All I've been saying this whole time is to watch what you say, and respect the beliefs of others, rather than trying to cancel them out. State what you yourself believe, in a situation like this. But just be CAREFUL about it... and understand that others will have their own equally valid reasons for the ways that they think. And dont just jump in to try to convince them otherwise. It's often not wanted. Consider, just as a thought, the idea of a true religious fanatic... one that goes around, proclaiming that everyone MUST believe in such-and-such, because it is the ONLY TRUTH, and blah blah blah! Driving everyone crazy! ....sound familiar? Just something to think about.

And dont forget one last thing: As already stated earlier... religion isnt all bad. If it leads ANYONE into a life of helping others... yeah. Not all bad. And it does that pretty frequently.

Unfortunately... the most VOCAL aspects of it... like that Westboro group... tend to then cast a negative view onto everyone else. Sadly, that's how it goes for many things; the negative ones are always the most vocal, is a saying I like to use (usually not in relation to this specific type of topic, but it still works well enough). The POSITIVE ones are too busy doing positive things to be hyper vocal about it, and usually cant raise their voices without the crazy ones going bonkers and drowning them out anyway.

But THAT bit is a whole other discussion. Which I imagine has already appeared in the form of multiple other topics.


Well, that was interesting to type out.

You know, I often wonder about that: considering what religion... any "core" belief... is to most people, what elements lead to people SAYING they still are a part of it, yet acting as the direct opposite?

This aspect doesnt make sense to me, really, when I think about it. Like, you know that Westboro group (or have I been naming them wrong the whole time?).

It's almost as if their entire method of thinking abruptly reverses itself, or sort of implodes, just... for no reason. Well, no, surely there must be a reason, and it seems there's likely a COMMON reason, but... what is it?

And of course this question isnt just applicable to religion, there's MANY things it can be applied to. But the psychology of it fascinates me, for no apparent reason.

In some ways I feel like I'm heading towards apatheism on the God vs. No God concern.

Mainly if there's something up there it either doesn't care how we approach it or it's so diffuse or utterly foreign to us that we'd have a difficult time knowing it if we saw it. That's not to say that spiritual work and pursuits are off, I've never been busier, just that I'm much more focused on my spirituality in the manner that I might hone something like a Tai Chi - it's a doing and a process rather than a groveling or the kind of nail-biting over salvation that I might have practiced when I was younger.

From a Christian standpoint, it would be the sin nature of man that causes them to hold such arrogance. Remember that Scripture says that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil". At that point, we as a human race were separated from the likeness of that which is Godly.

We naturally think we know better than God. Or at least take ungodly pride in our own opinion of the world around us, as you have rightly observed. We as humans like to puff ourselves up to think we are somehow more right with God because we live a more righteous lifestyle than other people. I have been guilty of this sin before. Or we feel more superior to others. As you have also inferred, we humans are so wicked as to use religion and the name of Jesus to bully and destroy other people. And all because of what? Well, the same thing you have been witnessing and fighting against on this thread.

Pride of our own knowledge... what little of it we have at least. Scripture says this:

1 Corinthians 8:1b-3 - [...] We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3But whoever loves God is known by God.

That whole passage of chapter 8 is actually pretty interesting and covers a lot of points that don't seem to cross the minds of many Christians even.

Verse 2 continually kept coming to mind as I kept reading the comments of some people on here. But it seems that you understand this one fairly well.

I invite the Holy Spirit to correct me if I am wrong on any of these points. I don't know. I'm pretty tired. But remember, this is from the perspective that I believe. I am convinced in my own heart and mind that if God had not put me in the situations in life that He did, and if He had not worked in my life in certain ways, then I too could be doing things just as evil as those "loud" fanatic groups out there that you mentioned.

Have you heard the saying: "Weren't for the grace of God, there I'd be"?

This actually causes me to be thankful for my disabilities and the bullying and uncomfortable circumstances that I've been in. As strange as that sounds. It refined my personality. What other people intended for evil, I believe that God has turned it around for good.

The harsh words that AspE has spoken, has actually stoked the fire of my faith, and makes me feel more thankful and devoted to God. It seems to have had the opposite effect that he intended. Oh well, he tried.

And at this point, I have no hard feelings towards him, because I WAS just like AspE earlier in life. So I think instead of trying to argue my side, I will instead pray for him. Ain't no man gonna convince him. That's going to have to be a conversation between AspE, and a God he refuses to believe in. Just like it was for me.

But that takes something called humility. It's this 8 lettered word that eludes most of the human race. As a matter of fact, they run from it like it's a terrible disease. If anyone wants to hear from the God of the Christian Bible, then I suggest they humble themselves. It is not the pursuit of knowledge, or elaborate logic, but humility instead.

James 4:6: But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

At the risk of rambling I will add this. Our sin simply does not make sense. All the evil and dominating of other people we want just doesn't make sense to pursue. Because if we step back and think about it, it will bring no lasting satisfaction or joy in life. If we kill off and push away all the people we can love, what point or meaning is there in existence, then to run around outside, eat, and die alone? And that's on a non-spiritual aspect.

I think humanity as a whole has all their priorities reversed. And this appears to be inherent to human nature, again from a Christian perspective.

Oh man! I need to get to bed. I'm one tired rob0t! But I haven't forgotten about the other topic you wanted to hear about... the "paradox of God creating the universe, but who created God" issue.

I get off work at 4PM tomorrow, so maybe I'll have time then.

Good night my friend.

World Pantheism comes first to mind & Naturalistic or Humanistic Paganism, too, but there are and have been plenty of others in the non-Western/non-English speaking world.

I agree that religion is not the root of all evil, because there is always going to be the random meteorite that someday will strike and cause great tragedy. Oh, and because religion is merely a vehicle or tool which evil, selfish, antisocial people find works wonderfully to their advantage. But this belies the true cause of the evil & it is not religion, is it?

Interesting that no one has mentioned this yet:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 NIV

Even if it was not in Scripture, doesn't it really seem to be the case?