For those of you against BLM

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There's a real world out there. There are many truths which are not quantifiable through studies; this is my strong opinion.

People are individuals--not "models" obtained through research findings.

I hope you are going out there and meeting people the world---people who are, by and large, not the subject of sociological studies. The only way to learn about people's experiences is to either experience them yourself, or listen to stories told by people (admittedly subjective--but, nevertheless, illustrative).

You have a right to your opinion--that there's no "institutional" racism. There isn't, OFFICIALLY---but the De Facto signs are everywhere.

If you get shot by a police officer because he saw a "shiny object," would you care whether only 36 people, out of millions, were killed needlessly by cops?

Would you feel: 36 is such a minute number that it isn't even worthy of consideration?

I think your pain, and your shock, and your anger at being shot by the cop would transcend all the research findings in the world, no matter how "objective" they are.

Come back here in ten years. I wonder what you would think then.

My recent posting history, huh? So what did I say specifically that was not factual? Oh, no reference to that? Alright. If you want some advice, try to refrain from using ad hominem attacks in the future. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Racial profiling is not racism. What, is the NYPD just supposed to pretend that the vast majority of shootings are not committed by black people, just so people won't feel uncomfortable about it? Black people commit a ton of crime; specifically, young black males commit a ridiculous amount of crime, and that number is even higher in cities like NYC. Blacks made up 73 percent of the shooting perpetrators in New York in 2011, despite being only 23 percent of the population. That is the uncomfortable truth. Maybe if black people are tired of getting profiled they should start talking about that, instead of blaming the police for doing their job.

I don't know a lot about the NYPD specifically, so I'm not going to defend everything they have done or are doing currently. But it looks like in a lot of those cases where the police were using excessive force or something similar, they were disciplined for it. One of them went to prison. For the other cases it didn't specify what happened afterwards.

The article you linked is trying to take a few cases of officers using excessive force on a black victim to imply that the whole organization is just teeming with racism. That is completely ridiculous, and you know it. Do you know how many officers there are currently in the NYPD? 34,450. So yeah, 25 black officers whining about being pulled over too much and a few stories of a**hole NYPD officers who get punished for their actions doesn't really make a strong case.

So who's the one that doesn't care about facts?

The NYPD is not teeming with racism.

But what racism there is must be stamped out strongly.

I see something wrong with racial profiling when a cop gets out of his police car, talks to a guy just getting off of work like a criminal, backs him up against the wall, and demands identification. Without ANY probable cause--or some fake probable cause like there being a "bulge" in some guy's pants that was actually made by a belt. Just because the guy was wearing jeans, just like the description of a guy who committed a store robbery nearby. Newflash: EVERYBODY wears jeans!

I highlighted the part I found most important with what you said. Extra emphasis on "opinion". Also, when did I say people are models obtained through research findings? You are misrepresenting my views completely. That sentence barely even makes sense.


What are you even talking about? What does this have to do with anything being discussed here? No offense, but I have zero interest in getting life advice from you, so I would appreciate if you'd stop giving it.


Yes, there is de facto racism of all kinds: white people against white people, black people against white people, white people against black people, black people against Hispanic people, Asians against other Asians etc. etc. etc. What is your point? That cannot be changed by political movements or laws. A racist can only be punished for committing a crime, and in a society that condemns racism and criminalizes racial discrimination, they don't usually get away with much.


You still do not understand. At all. Pain, shock, and anger do not transcend facts. It's understandable that something like that could affect your judgement, but you would still be wrong to base your assumptions about all or most police officers on anecdotal evidence.

You are being extremely condescending towards me right now, acting like you know how I'd react to certain situations, talking down to me about how I'm going to come back in ten years and agree with you, telling me what I should do with my life. Seriously, stop. If you don't I will report you for making posts that have nothing to do with the topic.

And no, I will never agree with what you are saying, because you are flat-out wrong. Using your own personal experience as evidence of a larger phenomenon instead of statistics, research, studies etc. is the definition of stupidity: you are closing your mind off to facts and being willfully ignorant because they don't fit your personal experience, which is always completely subjective and biased. Even research has to be peer-reviewed, and you think that your individual personal experiences count for anything in a debate about quantifiable things like systemic racism? They don't, so for the last time, stop pretending they do.

Hey buddy-boy, that's no way to talk to somebody.

Getting a wee bit defensive, are we?

That's it....I'm done.

L Holmes for president!

Seconded.

There is a plain, unvarnished--if oversimplified truth:

1) SOME people should never have become police officers.
2) Some police shootings ARE justified.
3) Your age, background, environment and/or skin color are NOT acceptable excuses
for unacceptable behavior.
4) As much as the trend is to blame everyone & everything for your situation you ARE responsible
for those choices and actions--no one else is.
5) Those choices can have drastic life altering or life ending consequences.
6) You should always THINK about those choices before you decide to do something illegal or
otherwise counterproductive to your continued good health.

Last edited by shadowboxer on 31 Jul 2016, 3:01 pm, edited 7 times in total.

You push, poke and provoke until he bites back and suddenly he's the one acting inappropriately?

Being a bit of a troll, are we?

kraftiekortie is probably the least troll-like and most genial person I have ever encountered online. He has always struck me as genuine and desiring of getting along with everyone. I really don't think it's fair to insult and falsely accuse him like that. I think his extensive posting history and his supportive and positive attitude speak for themselves.

I might have had the same reaction to me as you had with me, Holmes.

All I'm saying: one cannot dismiss personal experience out of hand.

Yes, it's an reaction borne of emotion.

I hope, one day, someone calls you stupid for having an emotional reaction to something.

That's part of effecting change: tapping into your Life Experience. Logic only goes so far.

I believe in the results of research studies, I stated, but in COMPLEMENT with personal experience.

If one relies solely on either one, one will get nowhere.

This is what I believe. And if anybody doesn't like it, all I can say is C'est La Vie.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 31 Jul 2016, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And so it goes......I'm going to the Bar to order some Grenadine

Nothing major really happened here. I said I believe there remains De Facto racism. Some others of you disagree with that.

No trolling occurred. There was just a difference of opinion. I stated, with life experience, that this opinion (i.e., that systemic racism doesn't exist) could be modified.

I believe opinions could evolve or change through life experience. Many of my opinions changed or evolved with life experience. And people took exception to that statement.m Can't please the world, I suppose.

I'll say it - - a certain someone's upbringing in a state like Missouri has colored his perception of black Americans.

I just want to say that, yes i do care, but i don't feel im qualified to speak with this, as ive never experienced this (im white) but also that ive never SEEN it happen, i live in England....perhaps it happens a lot less often or its more subtle here.

Probably because your police don't carry guns--at least not those out on patrol, I'm not sure if you have what are equivalent to SWAT teams here. I imagine that would have an impact on your officer-related-shootings numbers.

The American government (DOJ) doesn't even keep accurate statistics on police shootings where police do the shooting, only on police who are shot and killed. Washington Post Article: How many police shootings a year? No one knows

Whereas I'm going purely on the evidence of kraftiekortie's dealings with L_Holmes, in which he has been repeatedly derogatory and insulting, rather than making allowances because of perceived previous good behaviour.

It is entirely fair to call out bad behaviour when bad behaviour is being displayed, no matter the supposed good standing of the badly behaved. Your objection is noted and rejected.



Of course you'll say it. In my experience, you've never been one to shy away from logical fallacies.