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JohnPowell
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29 Nov 2016, 10:54 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


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The_Walrus
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29 Nov 2016, 4:09 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.

If they cleansed the population then they didn't do a very good job at it - there are far more non-Jews in Israel now than there were in the whole Israel/Palestine territory in 1930 or 1949.

1.69m Arabs in Israel today, compared to about 1.2m in all of British Palestine in 1948. There's another 4.55m in Palestine. This period of ethnic cleansing saw the population increase in Israel and quintupled across the whole territory.


They forced around 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes and villages, murderer, raped and plundered. I'd say they did a good job of cleansing. Ethnic cleansing doesn't just mean to kill people, you realise that?

Ah, so you're specifically talking about the 1948 exodus. Got you.

Firstly, 1948 was nearly 70 years ago. Since 1949, the Arab population of Israel has tripled. That suggests that things are very good for Arabs in Israel.

Secondly, although the causes of the 1948 exodus remain controversial, the consensus seems to be that most were fleeing from the war. Some were forced out, some left because they were scared of Jews, but most were refugees, not the victims of deliberate action by the Israelis. A few villages were cleansed, but there isn't any evidence of a systematic nationwide cleansing.



Kraichgauer
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29 Nov 2016, 4:10 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


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JohnPowell
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29 Nov 2016, 5:42 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.

If they cleansed the population then they didn't do a very good job at it - there are far more non-Jews in Israel now than there were in the whole Israel/Palestine territory in 1930 or 1949.

1.69m Arabs in Israel today, compared to about 1.2m in all of British Palestine in 1948. There's another 4.55m in Palestine. This period of ethnic cleansing saw the population increase in Israel and quintupled across the whole territory.


They forced around 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes and villages, murderer, raped and plundered. I'd say they did a good job of cleansing. Ethnic cleansing doesn't just mean to kill people, you realise that?

Ah, so you're specifically talking about the 1948 exodus. Got you.

Firstly, 1948 was nearly 70 years ago. Since 1949, the Arab population of Israel has tripled. That suggests that things are very good for Arabs in Israel.

Secondly, although the causes of the 1948 exodus remain controversial, the consensus seems to be that most were fleeing from the war. Some were forced out, some left because they were scared of Jews, but most were refugees, not the victims of deliberate action by the Israelis. A few villages were cleansed, but there isn't any evidence of a systematic nationwide cleansing.


No, things aren't good for the Arabs in Israel. They live under different laws, and God help them if they're unlucky enough to have a Jordanian passport. You realise that people having babies doesn't mean they are living like royalty? Ever heard of a continent called Africa?

OK, so you've only read Israel's propaganda version of 1947/48. They left their homes because they were "scared of Jews"? :lol: Where do you get this stuff from?


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JohnPowell
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29 Nov 2016, 5:48 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


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cyberdad
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29 Nov 2016, 6:16 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Israel knew what Hamas were and helped them get to power by destroying the PLO, who wanted to resolve the conflict. Hamas is a product of what Israel have been doing to Palestinians for decades. Palestinians have tried to be non violent, and got arrested, beaten, tortured and/or killed. You completely ignore Israel's actions and actual charter which they are carrying out, basically Moshe Dayan's promise "We don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go".


Don't get me wrong, I don't support Israel's use of torture or their internal security act or their race laws pertaining to who can be a Jew.

However constructive alliances rather than invoking age old religious bigotry would help the Palestinians in the long run.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /71660562/

Israel could certainly do more to economically develop Palestinians living within their borders as it's also in their interests. I imagine 1-2 generations of Palestinians have to accept Israeli dominance in order to develop themselves economically



Kraichgauer
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29 Nov 2016, 7:38 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


Do you have a source for that? Because I recall from a documentary about the Nazis, when the wife of a German higher up learned what was happening in those camps, she confronted Hitler. She recalled him explaining that he had to do this to keep the biological balance in Europe because of the war.


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JohnPowell
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30 Nov 2016, 1:14 pm

cyberdad wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Israel knew what Hamas were and helped them get to power by destroying the PLO, who wanted to resolve the conflict. Hamas is a product of what Israel have been doing to Palestinians for decades. Palestinians have tried to be non violent, and got arrested, beaten, tortured and/or killed. You completely ignore Israel's actions and actual charter which they are carrying out, basically Moshe Dayan's promise "We don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go".


Don't get me wrong, I don't support Israel's use of torture or their internal security act or their race laws pertaining to who can be a Jew.

However constructive alliances rather than invoking age old religious bigotry would help the Palestinians in the long run.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /71660562/

Israel could certainly do more to economically develop Palestinians living within their borders as it's also in their interests. I imagine 1-2 generations of Palestinians have to accept Israeli dominance in order to develop themselves economically


OK, so that's a positive for any rich Palestinians.

They don't want Palestinians in Israel, and hope you're not suggesting the West Bank is in Israel's borders.


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JohnPowell
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30 Nov 2016, 1:20 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


Do you have a source for that? Because I recall from a documentary about the Nazis, when the wife of a German higher up learned what was happening in those camps, she confronted Hitler. She recalled him explaining that he had to do this to keep the biological balance in Europe because of the war.


It comes from the revisionist sector, so probably best to contact those at the top of that field regarding the source. I can't remember which book the guy said it came from. If you have trouble finding it then just PM me or something, probably will get in trouble for mentioning names on the forums. That could be true, but then it's just someone's word.


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Kraichgauer
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30 Nov 2016, 5:21 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


Do you have a source for that? Because I recall from a documentary about the Nazis, when the wife of a German higher up learned what was happening in those camps, she confronted Hitler. She recalled him explaining that he had to do this to keep the biological balance in Europe because of the war.


It comes from the revisionist sector, so probably best to contact those at the top of that field regarding the source. I can't remember which book the guy said it came from. If you have trouble finding it then just PM me or something, probably will get in trouble for mentioning names on the forums. That could be true, but then it's just someone's word.


Holocaust revisionists?


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JohnPowell
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02 Dec 2016, 12:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


Do you have a source for that? Because I recall from a documentary about the Nazis, when the wife of a German higher up learned what was happening in those camps, she confronted Hitler. She recalled him explaining that he had to do this to keep the biological balance in Europe because of the war.


It comes from the revisionist sector, so probably best to contact those at the top of that field regarding the source. I can't remember which book the guy said it came from. If you have trouble finding it then just PM me or something, probably will get in trouble for mentioning names on the forums. That could be true, but then it's just someone's word.


Holocaust revisionists?


Yeah, or WWII revisionists.


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Kraichgauer
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02 Dec 2016, 6:54 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Jews have done very well in the US. They were offered a homeland elsewhere but refused. The British promised Palestine to the Jews during WWI. Disabled people are the eternal outsiders, where's there homeland? Zionists were working hard during the 30's to get as many Jews as possible into Palestine. They stole a country and cleansed the native population. Nothing to do with an existential threat.


You don't consider the Holocaust to be an existential threat?


WWII certainly made Jewish people feel threatened, but WWII wasn't just about Jews. Millions of people died from all creeds. My point is, the plan to steal Palestine had long been planned before WWII.


While there were millions of others who had certainly suffered under Hitler, the primary target were always the Jews, as Hitler made abundantly clear in Mein Kampf.


Not just "suffered", they were liquidated. Hitler wanted Jews out of Europe or in slave labor camps. From what I've seen, it was far more the likes of Himmler and Eichman who wanted Jews wiped out by death. Some of the death camps seem to have been set up to kill the elderly or to kill Jews and steal their jewelry.


Even if it was true that the Holocaust was the work of Himmler, and Eichmann (and don't forget Heydrich), the fact remains, Hitler would hardly have been blind to what was going on, and the fact that he did nothing to stop the mass extermination of Jews meant at the very least that he approved of it. And the Nazis didn't have to kill anyone to get their valuables, as they had the power to separate those Jews from their belongings. No, that theft was only incidental to the plan for mass extermination.


Actually, there were instances where he did speak out against the mass killings of Jews. Pretty much where he said exactly that when told about holes being dug in the ground, Jews poured in like sardines and shot to pieces. Hitler was more interested in winning the war and wanted to deal with the "Jewish problem" after the war. It seems to depend on which camp they were in. It seems the worst atrocities were carried out in other camps like Treblinka and not Auschwitz (which is now used to make tons of money). They can't show people around camps where the worst atrocities were carried out, because it was Himmler, I think, who ordered that they were leveled to destroy any evidence.


Do you have a source for that? Because I recall from a documentary about the Nazis, when the wife of a German higher up learned what was happening in those camps, she confronted Hitler. She recalled him explaining that he had to do this to keep the biological balance in Europe because of the war.


It comes from the revisionist sector, so probably best to contact those at the top of that field regarding the source. I can't remember which book the guy said it came from. If you have trouble finding it then just PM me or something, probably will get in trouble for mentioning names on the forums. That could be true, but then it's just someone's word.


Holocaust revisionists?


Yeah, or WWII revisionists.


You do know those revisionists are regarded by many as having an Antisemitic and racist agenda.


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02 Dec 2016, 7:32 pm

What, even Jewish ones? Even Jewish ones that had parents in Nazi concentration camps? What people miss is that there's a difference between deniers and revisionists. Deniers literally think concentration camps were lovely and the Nazis were angels.


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02 Dec 2016, 7:44 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
What, even Jewish ones? Even Jewish ones that had parents in Nazi concentration camps? What people miss is that there's a difference between deniers and revisionists. Deniers literally think concentration camps were lovely and the Nazis were angels.


Then what are their arguments? Giving Hitler a pass because he allegedly didn't know what the heads of the SS were doing sounds pretty sketchy.


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02 Dec 2016, 10:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
What, even Jewish ones? Even Jewish ones that had parents in Nazi concentration camps? What people miss is that there's a difference between deniers and revisionists. Deniers literally think concentration camps were lovely and the Nazis were angels.


Then what are their arguments? Giving Hitler a pass because he allegedly didn't know what the heads of the SS were doing sounds pretty sketchy.


Smells like "holocaust denier"



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03 Dec 2016, 12:31 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
What, even Jewish ones? Even Jewish ones that had parents in Nazi concentration camps? What people miss is that there's a difference between deniers and revisionists. Deniers literally think concentration camps were lovely and the Nazis were angels.


Then what are their arguments? Giving Hitler a pass because he allegedly didn't know what the heads of the SS were doing sounds pretty sketchy.


Smells like "holocaust denier"


I didn't want to blurt it out loud, and risk having another member possibly banned.


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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer