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Criteria for evidence of a God.

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Kilroy
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10 Dec 2008, 4:49 pm

human kindness :lol:



Fraya
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10 Dec 2008, 5:16 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Fraya wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
True. Very true.

My advice? Forget about this criteria for evidence. God Himself is in a place where you refuse to look. You'll never find Him if you don't look there. You'll never find God if you refuse to look inside yourself, inside others. So quit while you're ahead. Go back to logging data.


I did look.. found animals that think they aren't animals so desperately they're willing to believe anything.

Found no God there except for the awe inspiring power of human selfishness.


What about the power of human kindness? If you've never experienced simple human kindness, you have been sorely cheated.


99.9% of kindness is selfish in nature. It's done expecting a reward of some kind in the form of future favors, popularity, social standing, to impress someone, make yourself feel good, religious rewards (buying your way into heaven), or to get any one of the million other things people want. Real altruism is one of the rarest things on earth.


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skafather84
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10 Dec 2008, 5:44 pm

Fraya wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Fraya wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
True. Very true.

My advice? Forget about this criteria for evidence. God Himself is in a place where you refuse to look. You'll never find Him if you don't look there. You'll never find God if you refuse to look inside yourself, inside others. So quit while you're ahead. Go back to logging data.


I did look.. found animals that think they aren't animals so desperately they're willing to believe anything.

Found no God there except for the awe inspiring power of human selfishness.


What about the power of human kindness? If you've never experienced simple human kindness, you have been sorely cheated.


99.9% of kindness is selfish in nature. It's done expecting a reward of some kind in the form of future favors, popularity, social standing, to impress someone, make yourself feel good, religious rewards (buying your way into heaven), or to get any one of the million other things people want. Real altruism is one of the rarest things on earth.



that's one hell of a cynical worldview.


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Fraya
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10 Dec 2008, 6:22 pm

skafather84 wrote:
that's one hell of a cynical worldview.


I think it's more realism than cynicism.

It's not really a matter of attitude, opinion or worldview to point out the fact that the vast majority of acts of kindness have selfish motivations that's just the way people are.


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claire-333
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10 Dec 2008, 7:06 pm

I agree. I would also add obligation to that list.



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10 Dec 2008, 9:18 pm

Fraya wrote:
Actually it seems to me that such a demonstration of violating causality, the law of conservation of mass, and the third law of thermodynamics in a way that generates probabilities on the order of 1:infinity minus X like that would be sufficient evidence for most atheists.

Actually, given that the probability would be on the order of 1:infinity - X , I think most people would think that the probability that the entire thing was faked would be higher than the probability of it actually happening. I stated something to this effect earlier, which Fnord only posted on a fraction of:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
No evidence can exist.

If it were miraculous, it would either be unbelievable or a puzzle, or would be so to future generations.

If it were not miraculous, it could easily be taken as an artifact of chance.

Thus, the notion that a deity could be proven is nonsensical, we can argue that certain facts or arguments point in favor of such a being, but few would be considered proof.



alba
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10 Dec 2008, 9:25 pm

faith healing. there's a long list of faith healers. i only know of the most recent one. Todd Bentley, Canadian. the christian right hate him.

why do miracles have anything to do with evidence or proof of god? but if that's what floats your boat......the problem is unless you know someone who's had a permanent healing [or you yourself], you won't be convinced.

Todd Bentley supposedly healed thousands of people. yes he supposedly created limbs where none existed. supposedly raised 15 or 20 (approximately) people from the dead. this last summer. people came from all over the planet for their healing.

maybe about 30 people brought in doctor's reports which Bentley held up. but there were some legal complications about "privacy issues" which may have prevented him from proving the healings.

i personally believe Bentley is the real deal. however his power is really the power of people unified and focused in a single desire which is, to help him or help "god" accomplish "miraculous" healings. he has visions about who needs healing and he directs the power [of the 8000 or so assembled people] to those particular ailments.



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10 Dec 2008, 9:49 pm

Anybody who has had a limb regenerated would not need medical records to verify the event. Heck, if a legless man suddenly sprouted legs, or a dead man suddenly came to life and began walking, you'd think that somebody would notice! But NOOOOOOO, it's a matter of privacy that prevents scammers like Todd Bentley from being exposed as frauds.

I've been to faith healers. I've been prayed over. I've been dunked, dabbed, and sprinkled with "Holy" water.

Yet I am still physically disabled.

Show me a miracle, and I will believe. Perform a miraculous healing on me, and I'll go back to the seminary to finish my degree and then run for Pope.

Until then, claims of miraculous healing had better be accompanied by verifiable evidence, or I call it LYING!! !


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slowmutant
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10 Dec 2008, 9:50 pm

I wonder if Mr. Bentley has always done faith-healings before a large audience. I wonder if he's ever done private sessions.



Kilroy
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10 Dec 2008, 9:56 pm

alba wrote:
faith healing. there's a long list of faith healers. i only know of the most recent one. Todd Bentley, Canadian. the christian right hate him.

why do miracles have anything to do with evidence or proof of god? but if that's what floats your boat......the problem is unless you know someone who's had a permanent healing [or you yourself], you won't be convinced.

Todd Bentley supposedly healed thousands of people. yes he supposedly created limbs where none existed. supposedly raised 15 or 20 (approximately) people from the dead. this last summer. people came from all over the planet for their healing.

maybe about 30 people brought in doctor's reports which Bentley held up. but there were some legal complications about "privacy issues" which may have prevented him from proving the healings.

i personally believe Bentley is the real deal. however his power is really the power of people unified and focused in a single desire which is, to help him or help "god" accomplish "miraculous" healings. he has visions about who needs healing and he directs the power [of the 8000 or so assembled people] to those particular ailments.


wow...so you think Peter Popoff, Don Stewart and Robert Tilton are the real deal too?



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10 Dec 2008, 10:08 pm

If there ever was a faith-healer who shied away public performances, who was not interested in money or fame or personal glory ... that person would be the real deal. Televangelists are all frauds. Do they not make a total mockery of what ministry is supposed to be?



Kilroy
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10 Dec 2008, 10:14 pm

anyone can tell you that
they are one of the big reasons I renounced Christianity



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10 Dec 2008, 10:15 pm

Kilroy wrote:
anyone can tell you that
they are one of the big reasons I renounced Christianity

... and one of the major reasons I renounced religion in general.


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10 Dec 2008, 10:20 pm

Kilroy wrote:
anyone can tell you that
they are one of the big reasons I renounced Christianity


You renounced your faith because of televangelists? That's really a shame.



Kilroy
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10 Dec 2008, 10:25 pm

pretty much
that and the crummy life I've had to live :lol:
The day someone makes me believe in it all, I'll go to church and call myself a Christian
Some have come close...but we always fell out of contact



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10 Dec 2008, 10:25 pm

slowmutant wrote:
If there ever was a faith-healer who shied away public performances, who was not interested in money or fame or personal glory ... that person would be the real deal. Televangelists are all frauds. Do they not make a total mockery of what ministry is supposed to be?

I have wondered how do they do that, and how come that's not illegal, or, is it?


Quote:
... and one of the major reasons I renounced religion in general.

if being a televangelist gives you profit, then perhaps it is not such a bad idea, although you would have to lack the sense of remorse and guilt, although, talk shows and reality shows seem to be something like that as well, so perhaps it is about marketing or something :?


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