Do you Think We Should Start A War with China?

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Zeah,

Do you believe that all peoples have the right to self rule? That people are born with certain unalienable rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, reproductive freedom, and the right to be treated equal as other regardless of race, religion, gender, and age?
Can you imagine any situation in China where you believe that the US or UN should get involved and help remove the current leadership of China?

Do you honestly believe that China, if in a civil war, would deploy nuclear weapons? How would nuclear weapons help keep a regime in power? Can you explain to me a time, place, and location China would be successful to using nuclear weapons where it would help it tactfully in staying in power?

How would China be able to mobilize an army or project that army into the US? If it is a civil war, with most Chinese in favor of opposing the existing regime, how would be able to outnumber the US and its own people? Where would the troops come from?

its not the US or any others responsability to change another country. it never EVER was.
the chinese toppled their own empire. then they toppled their own republic.
dont underestimate the chinese.
the regime, as it is now, is the second most powerfull nation on the planet. if you look BEYOND the MERE lack of a western system of rule, then it is a successfull country.
yes. yes. yes. successfull. i dont give a crap what kind of rule it has. its a success. north korea has a similar kind of rule, and is a failure. invade north korea first, if you absolutely have to invade someone.



if the US got involved, the chinese would know, cus theyre not ret*ds. so YES. if the US got involved, they WOULD launch their nukes, cus thats why they got them: as a last resort weapon, to save the communist regime. they would utilize their nuclear arsenal, and they would use them against USA.



how do you know chinese are opposed to their regime? because communism is automatically bad to all americans? wake up. the chinese are in a world of their own. yes there are chinese people opposed to the rule, but the majority would defend it.
the troops would be DRAFTED, meaning they can utilize their full military availability, which currently counts at 600 million potential troops, twice that of the entire US population.
i dont see why they would have to invade usa. your talking about instigating a civil war in china, w US involvement in form of personell and weaponry. china's objective would be to crush the uprising, and destroy the invading forces. they wouldnt be required to venture across the ocean. and even if they did, why shouldnt china be able to do a land invation? cus USA is awesome?

Hal,

First off, you have failed to establish why the Russian President and leadership would agree to joining China in a fight against the United States. Second, assume, OK, they side with China. How willing are they to defend the Chinese government, which has the worst human rights violations in the world? Are they willing to sacrifice their country to keep Chinese regime in power? Is the leadership in Russia willing to turn all of Russia into a nuclear wasteland with no economic, political, or military power?

I don't think Russia would be willing to do that. I think it would be idiotic for the leaders of Russia to give up their lives, and the lives of all Russians to protect the current existing administration in China. At best, they might put Russian troops inside China to keep the US from attacking certain areas of China, and deploy submarines off the US coast to threaten action in retaliation a first nuclear strike. But a certain launch by Russia, would be a certain death of Russia. Russia would not do that unless the US directly attacked Russia first, which it would not do.

Second, I don't believe the people of Russia would support their government if it wanted to die and committ resources in a depression/recession to a war with the US. Remember, that is what made them poor in the first place, a cold war with the US.

Third, if it was a Civil War, Russia would be less justified in siding with a dictatorship side of the civil war than the side of the people that wanted democracy and the right to self rule of the people.

So, no, I don't buy that Russia would commit suicide for the sake of China maintaining an unjust dictatorship and iron grip on its people. The people of Russia also know the horror of being under such a type of government.

Finally, China would not be able to project most of its military power out to the US. The best it could do is oppress its own people and appeal to world opinion.

For every nuclear bomb that China launched, the US would knock down and return fire with conventional weapons. If, on chance a nuclear weapon came through and killed thousands of innocent people, the results would on the internet, and world opinion would turn against the Chinese dictatorship for targeting innocent people. As for Subs, we would have to prevent them from getting close enough. Our Navy is much larger than there navy.

If you studied Chinese government and politics like I did in college. You would know that the people in China are very much wanting to rid their government, and it is only a matter of time before the Chinese government either allows more freedoms of its people or falls, just like Russia did, and the Berlin Wall. You can only oppress a billion people for so long. It may happen with few or no people falling perhaps with a riot in Red Square, of an economic collapse and an unwilling regime wanting to fight, like the USSR.

Some time ago I was reading about the decay of Imperial China - at one point, when England was in her Industrial Revolution, the king sent the emperor an embassy with samples of the products of England's industries; the reply was that China wanted nothing from the outside world, but that the king was welcome to go to Peking to render the emperor homage. Decades later, England had ignominiously defeated China and the Western powers had carved up the country; the former superpower was in ruins. This thread makes me think that, in some respects, history is repeating itself, but with the roles reversed: Feckless Western powers, crippled by their own excesses and mistakes, lecture China while unable to function without her credit; most Americans act as if the world ended at their borders, and seem oblivious to the fact that China is no longer a Maoist agricultural wreck, but an increasingly sophisticated industrial powerhouse, the world's leading creditor nation (once upon a time it was the US, in the days when GM alone produced more cars than the rest of the world put together), sitting on almost a third of the world's entire reserves of hard cash (the US' reserves are only about a third larger than Indonesia's), has the largest army in the world and the world's second highest military spending. China remains a dictatorship, but the world has changed since the days of Tiananmen.

riiight... study china and politics in a higher forum than "college" and then come back to debate this.

the chinese has a higher personal buying power than ever. theyre not gonna topple their government, cus you learned in college that theyre all opressed.

Last edited by ZEGH8578 on 22 Feb 2009, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You know IdahoAspie, you continue to argue a moot point. But what if I were to admit that despite being stuck living in American I VERY MUCH WANT to see the United States FAIL miliarily and suffer a crushing defeat.

EVIDENCE please?

Knocking them down is actually quite hard to do. Only a small fraction of them getting through would be enough to turn the US into a famine-stricken nuclear wasteland.



It would not be thousands, it would be hundreds of thousands or millions per weapon. And you know nothing of the world if you think any government, even a democracy, faced with a threat to its existence, would care what the world thought. The irony of such drivel from the country that used nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki...



If you talked to some real, young Chinese instead of parroting what your media and your professors tell you, you would know that even the Chinese that hate the regime wouldn't support American-sponsored regime change, and would fight for their country if invaded. And they genuinely support Beijing's sovereignty in Tibet and Taiwan. If you think they'd receive the Americans with flowers, you are simply delusional and ignorant of human nature and history, whatever your marks on some tests (all those Ivy League-educated people that failed to foresee an insurgency in Iraq...).

Oh, and any words of wisdom on whether you're volunteering on being culled for the sake of the environment? Seems only fair, since you proposed such a cull...

It would ALSO mean certain death to the United States which would be DEVASTATED by Russian ICBMs!

Would you please use spell check because it is distracting from what you are trying to express.

What forum have you studied college, what forum do you think is higher than with University Professors of International Studies? The Secretary of State and members of the UN?

What you don't understand is that the ONLY reason the people of China tolerate the current government is because of the economic progress it has brought. And you fail to see that this progress is now over, and China is going into a depression as other nations stop buying their products as demand for it is rapidly declining. The people will be looking for someone to blame, as in any economic downfall. And it will be the Chinese Government who has been running everything.

And why would Russia launch ICBMs? Because why, Hal?

eh...

im tempted to leave this allone before it starts to affect my blood pressure levels, but ill give one more reply a chance:

Faulty logic: attacking china cus of poor economy. attack russia first, in fact, attack mexico, peru, iceland, you name it. attack everyone in the world.

you have entirely ran out of any sort of credible argument, everything you've proposed "evil commies", oppression, russia, timidness to world opinion, none of it has had any foundation in reality. you may just as well have used some van damme movie as your reference. study china. talk to chinese people who actually live IN china.

you are repeating the same arguments, and ignoring the INFORMATION given to you in replies.
this isnt a debate, its YOUR egotrip.

the usa can attack china, the day that pigs send a monkey into space.

I am afraid, you are not understanding the arguments, and are responding to claims I have not made. I never said to attack China or Russia first. I never brought any other country into it. I have talked to people in China.

But you are correct, you should leave this issue alone, because you are so biased against the USA for the actions of Bush, that you think China is a great nation that has a tolerable human rights record, all war is bad, and that anything the USA does is wrong and for profit.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I WANT the US to LOSE a war(militarily)! !! !!

Why?

Aside from the logistical, practical problems with this suggestion I'd like to ask a question about the morality.

If such a war did take place would the op be volunteering for the front line? Or do you consider other peoples lives expendable but not you're own?

And the basic point made is that morally this would be justified due to China's human rights record. So the solution to the suffering and murder of the Chinese would be to start a war which would cause untold suffering and death for the Chinese?

Morality is not relevant to plebian nationalists who want war to boost their own fragile ego's. That is why I have repeatedly countered the OPs spurious claims that such a war would be an easy win despite the not-so-unlikely possibility that the cost to the US would FAR exceed any potential benefits.

BTW IdahoAspie: Are you familiar with Supercavitating Torpedoes?
The Russian and Chinese Navy's already have them and the US is in the process of developing them but these weapons, combined with Moskit and Yakhont Missiles of the Chinese Navy could potentially sink attacking US vessels. The only saving grace is that such missiles have never been tested in combat.