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greenblue
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17 Jul 2009, 11:18 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
So, either you're reading from a dissenting dictionary, or you're wrong.

well, at least I'm reading from wikipedia


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Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 12:01 am

In any sensible pertinent discussion the participants do not argue about accepted definitions, they agree amongst themselves as to what their words shall mean and proceed from there to discuss implications. General accepted definitions are out of common usage and they are frequently too amorphous to be useful for serious discussion.



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18 Jul 2009, 12:03 am

vibratetogether wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Given the options, and my knowledge of probability (which, and you can trust me on this, is much greater than yours), creationism trumps the other explanations, especially considering the various other factors aside from the possibility of life, things that science can only say is coincidence. Atheism is not the easiest explanation for the universe. That's Discordianism.


Well, that's a little arrogant, and certainly doesn't "disprove" Atheism. You may in fact be more "learned" in probability than I am, but I play poker for a living. My life is one never-ending set of math problems based on incomplete information.

Furthermore, I don't see how a knowledge of probabilities has absolutely any bearing on the issue of creation. As an Agnostic, it is my view that these sort of matters are simply unknowable. We cannot perceive of them in the slightest. As such, some formulation of the probabilities is irrelevant, because to come to a conclusion, you need possibilities, and as an Agnostic, I don't see that we can even fathom said possibilities. As such, it is impossible to even look at this question from the school of probabilities.


Let me guess: Hold 'Em? The probabilites involved in Hold 'Em are not complicated in comparison to most any situation you can imagine where probability would be useful in determining outcomes. Stud8 is several times more complex than Hold 'Em, and probabilities that I tend to like to work on are several times more complex than Stud8. Obviously, it's a little more difficult because of a lack of a piece of paper and a pencil, but it gets easier each time I play.

Obviously, no limit add psychological odds to the mix, but I doubt you're assigning numbers from reasoned equations instead of "feeling" your way.

Even if your claim that no hard numbers can exist is true (I accept that my numbers were not absolute, but I believe they were fairly good approximations), we must consider intuitive calculation (which was, actually, the foundation for my probability calculations). What does this mean? It's a little more complicated. Once you've worked with probability enough, you come to recognize which things are more likely than others, and calculating the actual numbers becomes merely the routine and, to some extent, ongoing practice.

(Edit: Also, take your ego out of your arguments. Your beliefs are not necessarily absolute. You need to discard logical flaws as they come to you.)

Henriksson wrote:
Fine, you can call me agnostic if you like, even though you're probably aware what the definition that the vast majority of people on the internet use is probably a bit less black-and-white than yours.


Actually, I kind of prefer the designation of anti-Christian. That describes the situation rather well, I think.


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Sand
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18 Jul 2009, 12:08 am

MrLoony wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Given the options, and my knowledge of probability (which, and you can trust me on this, is much greater than yours), creationism trumps the other explanations, especially considering the various other factors aside from the possibility of life, things that science can only say is coincidence. Atheism is not the easiest explanation for the universe. That's Discordianism.


Well, that's a little arrogant, and certainly doesn't "disprove" Atheism. You may in fact be more "learned" in probability than I am, but I play poker for a living. My life is one never-ending set of math problems based on incomplete information.

Furthermore, I don't see how a knowledge of probabilities has absolutely any bearing on the issue of creation. As an Agnostic, it is my view that these sort of matters are simply unknowable. We cannot perceive of them in the slightest. As such, some formulation of the probabilities is irrelevant, because to come to a conclusion, you need possibilities, and as an Agnostic, I don't see that we can even fathom said possibilities. As such, it is impossible to even look at this question from the school of probabilities.


Let me guess: Hold 'Em? The probabilites involved in Hold 'Em are not complicated in comparison to most any situation you can imagine where probability would be useful in determining outcomes. Stud8 is several times more complex than Hold 'Em, and probabilities that I tend to like to work on are several times more complex than Stud8. Obviously, it's a little more difficult because of a lack of a piece of paper and a pencil, but it gets easier each time I play.

Obviously, no limit add psychological odds to the mix, but I doubt you're assigning numbers from reasoned equations instead of "feeling" your way.

Even if your claim that no hard numbers can exist is true (I accept that my numbers were not absolute, but I believe they were fairly good approximations), we must consider intuitive calculation (which was, actually, the foundation for my probability calculations). What does this mean? It's a little more complicated. Once you've worked with probability enough, you come to recognize which things are more likely than others, and calculating the actual numbers becomes merely the routine and, to some extent, ongoing practice.

Henriksson wrote:
Fine, you can call me agnostic if you like, even though you're probably aware what the definition that the vast majority of people on the internet use is probably a bit less black-and-white than yours.


Actually, I kind of prefer the designation of anti-Christian. That describes the situation rather well, I think.


There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.



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18 Jul 2009, 12:11 am

Sand wrote:
There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.


Except:

1. He admitted to being only against the Christian God.
2. The adjectives are quite clearly unnecessary and only serve to show bias.


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18 Jul 2009, 12:26 am

MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.


Except:

1. He admitted to being only against the Christian God.
2. The adjectives are quite clearly unnecessary and only serve to show bias.


May I express my doubts as to his faith in Zeus or Odin?



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18 Jul 2009, 1:00 am

Sand wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.


Except:

1. He admitted to being only against the Christian God.
2. The adjectives are quite clearly unnecessary and only serve to show bias.


May I express my doubts as to his faith in Zeus or Odin?


Only if you also provide proof of his research into those religions.

And I wouldn't recommend claiming that it's obvious that somebody doesn't believe in the Greek gods or the Norse gods, especially to a Discordian or to a Norse. Especially the latter. The Discordian would actually say that you are right, but you're also wrong.


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18 Jul 2009, 1:22 am

MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.


Except:

1. He admitted to being only against the Christian God.
2. The adjectives are quite clearly unnecessary and only serve to show bias.


May I express my doubts as to his faith in Zeus or Odin?


Only if you also provide proof of his research into those religions.

And I wouldn't recommend claiming that it's obvious that somebody doesn't believe in the Greek gods or the Norse gods, especially to a Discordian or to a Norse. Especially the latter. The Discordian would actually say that you are right, but you're also wrong.


You make me appreciate your choice of the name "MrLooney"



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18 Jul 2009, 1:32 am

Sand wrote:
You make me appreciate your choice of the name "MrLooney"


Your assumption being... what? That there are still people who follow the Norse beliefs? I have met at least two. Or that Discordianism exists (as an actual religion, not a parody religion as some people seem to assume)? I have a friend who's a Discordian Chaplain, and he would not appreciate your assumption that Discordianism is inherently false because you can't comprehend a religion based on the idea of a paradoxical universe.


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18 Jul 2009, 3:45 am

Sand wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Sand wrote:
There are lots of gods an atheist can disbelieve in. To limit it to the idiotic Christian God is to demonstrate a sense of personal persecution.


Except:

1. He admitted to being only against the Christian God.
2. The adjectives are quite clearly unnecessary and only serve to show bias.


May I express my doubts as to his faith in Zeus or Odin?

Er, I'm actually more inclined to believe in Odin. At least he's not described as perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and so on. That's a definite plus in the probability factor.


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18 Jul 2009, 10:46 am

Odin's figure is quite easy to reproduce in modern days anyways....An old man with white hair... (ok the helm part makes it tedious) with an eyepatch (i think ^.- ) and 2 crows on his shoulders (his companions, if i remember right).



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18 Jul 2009, 10:59 am

phil777 wrote:
Odin's figure is quite easy to reproduce in modern days anyways....An old man with white hair... (ok the helm part makes it tedious) with an eyepatch (i think ^.- ) and 2 crows on his shoulders (his companions, if i remember right).

With some genetic engineering we could make a eight-legged horse, too. 8)


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18 Jul 2009, 11:04 am

Hehhhh, i doubt that'd be a very good idea <.<; I only mentionned how feasible reproducing his image would be.... <.<

Besides, are we even sure a eight legged horse would be viable? <.<



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18 Jul 2009, 11:22 am

phil777 wrote:
Hehhhh, i doubt that'd be a very good idea <.<; I only mentionned how feasible reproducing his image would be.... <.<

Besides, are we even sure a eight legged horse would be viable? <.<


We could compromise with a tarantula on growth factor. Most certainly more feasible that producing a computer with omnipotence and omniscience which could be donated to Christians intent on having a god.