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DarthMetaKnight
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23 Feb 2011, 8:06 pm

Vigilans wrote:
That's what he says here, but he actually runs a kitten shelter


At least he still loves kittehs! :D :D :D
Image


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JakobVirgil
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23 Feb 2011, 8:19 pm

In my personal life I have found the rich to be quite nice but their children are horrid.
this is the only reason I support the Estate tax.
I support it on Aesthetic grounds.

-Jake
lover of Beauty.



Last edited by JakobVirgil on 23 Feb 2011, 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jamieboy
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23 Feb 2011, 8:25 pm

PJW wrote:

The notion that the rich STOLE - in caps to offend - their wealth from the poor is not only inaccurate and obscenely ideological, it's also offensive to those who aspire to a creative foundation for their wealth.


It is both accurate and entirely logical. Say for example every employee in the country were to take a month off starting from tomorrow. Do you think wealth would continue to be created? If not, why not? If your view of wealth creation were accurate then things would continue exactly as they do now, as wealth in your view is the product of the endeavours of the rich and the rich only.



ryan93
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23 Feb 2011, 8:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think all "Objectivists" need to read Hume. Ayn Rand commits the fallacy of deriving a "should" from an "is". Rationality cannot be appealed to as a moral directive. It's also rather ironic that people who most passionately claim that their views are based in "reason" are often the most unreasonable and emotive in their thinking.


Hume and Kant are both ka ka in the Rand-verse.

ruveyn


I suppose if you knock those two out of the picture you can flog any old garbage as "objectivity".


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aghogday
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23 Feb 2011, 9:09 pm

PJW wrote:
aghogday wrote:
@PJW

It is not a matter of impoverishing the rich; it is a matter of everyone paying their fair share for the services received in the country. The reduction of taxes has been largely a political gimmick in the last ten years. They were unfunded and benefitted all; rich and poor. Who do you think is going to end up paying for them? If you are young and find your way to employment (good luck to you) eventually you may be the one to assist in paying back those taxes; not the ones that got the most benefit.

Wouldn't it be fairer if the country starts working on it now; paying as we go, instead of waiting until it is your turn? The fact that those tax cuts were not funded makes them handouts. I don't see many rich or poor refusing those handouts.


Maybe I'm having a bad day. Aren't you agreeing with me about the arbitrary sacrifice of what's mine to benefit everyone other than me?

Our System of collecting taxes is not working like it should. Never in our history has nearly fifty percent of the country been able to avoid federal income tax. It is a direct result of the tax cuts of 2001. The money padded my bank account, but I understood at that time that someone else would likely fund the gift that I was receiving.

It was amazing to me that the country finally had a surplus; I found it sad that many people did not understand the ultimate consequence that the war in Iraq and the tax cuts would have on our country. I believe everyone should support the services that our country provides If politicians didn't break the system, it wouldn't require the sacrifice that may ultimately be yours.


There is a difference the Left will never understand between cutting taxes arbitrarily and broadening the tax base so a burden is not ostensibly or arbitrarily or in an increasingly global economy borne by one section to its detriment. The Left, squealing with delight as Snowbell falls so Napolean to claim his opponents are simply Snowbellian, read Animal Farm, people, Orwell hated communism as much as the next man, only see big business and the rich as cash cows for the "deserving" poor.

The notion that the rich STOLE - in caps to offend - their wealth from the poor is not only inaccurate and obscenely ideological, it's also offensive to those who aspire to a creative foundation for their wealth.

NEVER TAX INHERITANCES! Taxing an inheritance is taxing an endowment. Once you do that, every, I repeat, EVERY charitable donation, instead of being tax exempt, will automatically, therefore, by logical and ideological extension, also have to be taxed. Do that, and you will kill philanthropy and charity in one fell swoop.

Why are people so guilty of being good at something and receiving reward for it? The irony is, Roger Federer makes more when he loses at the quarter final stage of a grand slam than most of us will make at the peak of our powers in a year. He's feted as the most incredible man, deserving of every dollar he makes. The man that invented the i-pad, however, is not entitled to his wealth? Why? His wealth is also entertainment.

See any disparity here?

Yes, Roger Federer has his Africa foundation. So do most captains of industry, ironically to lower their taxes, also if not have foundations, then contribute to them. You can't force altruism, you can only encourage charity.

Altruism says that I will feed another man and his family before me and my own. Let me ask you, do you see the problem with this?


I don't believe in increasing inheritence taxes above what they are now; and understand that it is in our nature to provide resources to our children once we are gone. It is more acceptable to increase taxes on people while they are working

Capitalism works because people are free to pursue their potential. True Altruism would be if we intentionally fed roaches to better enable them to crawl on us. Whenever we help anyone that is human we postivitely impact our species, however small the contribution is. It would be easier to understand the necessity of this if we still lived in small tribes.

Evolution has resulted in cooperative behavior to ensure that our family gets fed; this often means that more than one family gets fed, but not normally to the exclusion of our own. Part of the reason that Capitalism works so well is that it allows us to maximize our resources for survival. In our country technology and a global economy has resulted in efficiencies that have decreased the opportunities for people to participate.

Mass starvation will never be a solution to this problem. People with guns will do what is necessary to feed their families. Unfortunately this is the way we are headed if we don't address the problem now. If we severely cut social programs when jobs are not availble; the demise of our country will come sooner.



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23 Feb 2011, 9:52 pm

The issue I personally have with inheretence taxes is that it is essentially a tax on what you have already been taxed on and have not spent. Considering the absolutly pitifull level of national savings that unerwrite most western banks a tax on saved money is just lucdacris to me.


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AceOfSpades
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23 Feb 2011, 10:12 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
In my person life I have found the rich to be quite nice but their children are horrid.
this is the only reason I support the Estate tax.
I support it on Aesthetic grounds.

-Jake
lover of Beauty.
Ever heard the phrase "Wealth doesn't last three generations"? It explains it pretty well.



aghogday
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23 Feb 2011, 10:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
aghogday wrote:

With respect, what if it is your hard working children or grandchildren, who become unemployed or disabled at no fault of their own; I don't think they deserve to starve.



Deserve? No. But they might starve. Life is hard and unfair.

ruveyn


I understand your lack of sentiment.



marshall
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23 Feb 2011, 10:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think all "Objectivists" need to read Hume. Ayn Rand commits the fallacy of deriving a "should" from an "is". Rationality cannot be appealed to as a moral directive. It's also rather ironic that people who most passionately claim that their views are based in "reason" are often the most unreasonable and emotive in their thinking.


Hume and Kant are both ka ka in the Rand-verse.

ruveyn

Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.



ruveyn
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23 Feb 2011, 11:24 pm

marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn



marshall
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23 Feb 2011, 11:42 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn

I at least respect your honesty. You believe it is wrong to tax the wealthy for the sake of providing a minimum safety net of basic needs (i.e universal emergency healthcare, a small income for those unable to work, etc). I believe it is wrong for society not to do so. Both are based on differing subjective values.



JakobVirgil
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23 Feb 2011, 11:50 pm

marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn

I at least respect your honesty. You believe it is wrong to tax the wealthy for the sake of providing a minimum safety net of basic needs (i.e universal emergency healthcare, a small income for those unable to work, etc). I believe it is wrong for society not to do so. Both are based on differing subjective values.


I don't think ruveyn is an objectivist I think he belongs to a different tradition of folks that believe in rational self interest.
chicago school or austrian school something like that.
correct me if I am wrong.
-Jake



marshall
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24 Feb 2011, 12:07 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn

I at least respect your honesty. You believe it is wrong to tax the wealthy for the sake of providing a minimum safety net of basic needs (i.e universal emergency healthcare, a small income for those unable to work, etc). I believe it is wrong for society not to do so. Both are based on differing subjective values.


I don't think ruveyn is an objectivist I think he belongs to a different tradition of folks that believe in rational self interest.
chicago school or austrian school something like that.
correct me if I am wrong.
-Jake

The "Austrian school" is the ideological one. The Chicago school is the more pragmatic one. Milton Friedman actually supported the ultimate sin of outright wealth redistribution to the poor. He did it through a simplified "negative income tax" formula. There's no way any Austrian economist would accept that.



ruveyn
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24 Feb 2011, 7:55 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn

I at least respect your honesty. You believe it is wrong to tax the wealthy for the sake of providing a minimum safety net of basic needs (i.e universal emergency healthcare, a small income for those unable to work, etc). I believe it is wrong for society not to do so. Both are based on differing subjective values.


I don't think ruveyn is an objectivist I think he belongs to a different tradition of folks that believe in rational self interest.
chicago school or austrian school something like that.
correct me if I am wrong.
-Jake


If follow Hillel

If I am not for myself, then who is for me?
If I am only for myself then what am I?
If not now, then when?

Perke Avot I-15

I avoid political and economic labels. I believe in property and the freedom to invest. I do not hold with screwing over one's neighbors or defrauding widows and orphans like that momser Bernie Madoff did. That man is an embarrasment to the Jews in particular and the human race in general.

ruveyn



ryan93
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24 Feb 2011, 8:07 am

Quote:
In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn


My problems aren't so much with the Objectivist philosophy, rather with its claims of absolute truth, or solid logical foundations. Frankly, I have no particular problem with people refusing to pay any form of tax, or to strongly assert individual property rights.


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JakobVirgil
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24 Feb 2011, 8:09 am

ruveyn wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Why? Because Rand can't refute Hume? The very term "objectivism" is a joke.


In many respects, it is. Rand is not that good a philosopher and she was no logician.

ruveyn

I at least respect your honesty. You believe it is wrong to tax the wealthy for the sake of providing a minimum safety net of basic needs (i.e universal emergency healthcare, a small income for those unable to work, etc). I believe it is wrong for society not to do so. Both are based on differing subjective values.


I don't think ruveyn is an objectivist I think he belongs to a different tradition of folks that believe in rational self interest.
chicago school or austrian school something like that.
correct me if I am wrong.
-Jake


If follow Hillel

If I am not for myself, then who is for me?
If I am only for myself then what am I?
If not now, then when?

Perke Avot I-15

I avoid political and economic labels. I believe in property and the freedom to invest. I do not hold with screwing over one's neighbors or defrauding widows and orphans like that momser Bernie Madoff did. That man is an embarrasment to the Jews in particular and the human race in general.

ruveyn


Quote:
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn
.
also Hillel
that Jesus guy needs to be sued for intellectul property theft :lol:


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