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Dox47
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13 May 2012, 3:37 am

This one isn't specifically about liberalism or conservatism but partisanship generally, and is a paraphrase that I think sums up the mentality quite nicely and concisely:

Quote:
In partisan politics, the end justifies the means, and people who disagree with your ideological beliefs are to be mercilessly mocked, strategically misrepresented, and treated as if their motives are evil.


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Dox47
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13 May 2012, 3:58 am

I've got a good example of the blind spot that the article is talking about; people's attitudes towards the fight over PPACA (Obamacare, if you must), no so much about the act itself but about the attitudes of others towards it.

I'm unsurprisingly in the Randy Barnett crowd, believing that the individual mandate is novel and unconstitutional because it regulates inactivity, and that is not one of Congress's enumerated powers. This is constant with my view on what I see as an overly broad reading of the commerce clause generally, and puts me squarely in the libertarian camp. I oppose PPACA not because I have a problem with providing healthcare to citizens, but because I have a big problem with the way that this bill would further erode at what little restraint congressional power currently has. Come up with a way of helping people that doesn't further encroach on my right to be left alone, and I'll have no objection to signing on.

Where I'm going with this is that to many liberal commentators and even liberals I've interacted with, my position just does not exist as far as they're concerned, if you're against the mandate you're for people dying in the street and to HELL with the Constitution (I've literally seen that last point made word for word). That's a fundamental breakdown in empathy for me, not to mention being a prime piece of ends justifying the means thinking and a good example of the "it's the thought that counts" school of rationalizing sometimes seen on the left when flaws in their lawmaking are pointed out. "How are we going to pay for this?" "I don't know, but that doesn't matter because it helps X people!". Stereotype? Yep. Inaccurate? Well...


Also:
You, yeah you, furiously typing some variant of "The RIGHT WINGERS DO THAT TOO!! !", I'll save your fingers the exercise: The right wing also has it's peccadilloes, we spend plenty of other threads talking about them, and their myriad flaws don't excuse anything discussed here anyway. There.


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Dox47
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13 May 2012, 4:00 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I don't give a damn about the subject, let me just frank.


You keep saying that and yet you keep responding... Actions and words telling different stories here.


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13 May 2012, 4:42 am

One interesting aspect to all of this is that, in the interviews I've heard with this author, I thought he came across as more harsh towards *the right* than towards the left.



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13 May 2012, 5:04 am

Dox47 wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
I don't give a damn about the subject, let me just frank.


You keep saying that and yet you keep responding... Actions and words telling different stories here.


Hmmm, why does a person always have to keep their word? You keep baiting over and over and over again. And I bet you will reply to this again. Why are you so interested in me? I made my point very clearly in my first post. We seem to disagree on this matter.

I'm not interested in debate. I am only concerned with the truth.



edgewaters
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13 May 2012, 5:13 am

Dox47 wrote:
I've got a good example of the blind spot that the article is talking about; people's attitudes towards the fight over PPACA (Obamacare, if you must), no so much about the act itself but about the attitudes of others towards it.

I'm unsurprisingly in the Randy Barnett crowd, believing that the individual mandate is novel and unconstitutional because it regulates inactivity, and that is not one of Congress's enumerated powers. This is constant with my view on what I see as an overly broad reading of the commerce clause generally, and puts me squarely in the libertarian camp. I oppose PPACA not because I have a problem with providing healthcare to citizens, but because I have a big problem with the way that this bill would further erode at what little restraint congressional power currently has. Come up with a way of helping people that doesn't further encroach on my right to be left alone, and I'll have no objection to signing on.

Where I'm going with this is that to many liberal commentators and even liberals I've interacted with, my position just does not exist as far as they're concerned, if you're against the mandate you're for people dying in the street and to HELL with the Constitution (I've literally seen that last point made word for word). That's a fundamental breakdown in empathy for me, not to mention being a prime piece of ends justifying the means thinking and a good example of the "it's the thought that counts" school of rationalizing sometimes seen on the left when flaws in their lawmaking are pointed out. "How are we going to pay for this?" "I don't know, but that doesn't matter because it helps X people!". Stereotype? Yep. Inaccurate? Well...


Also:
You, yeah you, furiously typing some variant of "The RIGHT WINGERS DO THAT TOO!! !", I'll save your fingers the exercise: The right wing also has it's peccadilloes, we spend plenty of other threads talking about them, and their myriad flaws don't excuse anything discussed here anyway. There.


Damn, you are good ... theres that vague part about eroding at restraint that pops right out, looks juicy but I smell a trap.

I think I would skip over that and go for "even liberals Ive interacted with", knock that out (anecdote), then "many liberal commentators" - how many? Dismiss the specific examples you no doubt have as more anecdote ... maybe toss in a charge of assumption for that last bit (meh, itd keep you busy) ... still its a fairly peripheral line of attack ... but maybe Id find out more about the vague part ... anyway, I can tell it would be a good, tough fight. This one is a veteran position isnt it? You have had this fight before, I think.



Dox47
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13 May 2012, 7:17 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I'm not interested in debate. I am only concerned with the truth.


Do you just arrive at an uncontested truth unilaterally? The only point I'm making here is that if you have an opinion and wish it to be taken seriously, support it rather than declaring that you "just know it's right" and moving on. I'm also saying that a truly disinterested party would simply have stopped reporting so you're not being honest with me, and likely with yourself for that matter. Some part of you cares about the topic, or you'd never have posted in this thread in the first place, let alone the subsequent posts.


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Dox47
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13 May 2012, 7:20 am

LKL wrote:
One interesting aspect to all of this is that, in the interviews I've heard with this author, I thought he came across as more harsh towards *the right* than towards the left.


Haidt? I've never been sure if that's an artifact of his mostly speaking to left-ish audiences, but I've found what papers of his I've read on ideology to be quite fair. That's part of the reason I was excited to post this particular excerpt for discussion; a non-partisan researcher reaching a conclusion that some on the left are going to find uncomfortable. Attack the science or do some self-exploration?


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13 May 2012, 1:35 pm

Dox47 wrote:
LKL wrote:
One interesting aspect to all of this is that, in the interviews I've heard with this author, I thought he came across as more harsh towards *the right* than towards the left.


Haidt? I've never been sure if that's an artifact of his mostly speaking to left-ish audiences, but I've found what papers of his I've read on ideology to be quite fair. That's part of the reason I was excited to post this particular excerpt for discussion; a non-partisan researcher reaching a conclusion that some on the left are going to find uncomfortable. Attack the science or do some self-exploration?

Haidt, yes. I do think he's fair, but perhaps my bias makes me perceive liberal problems as not-as-bad as conservative ones.



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13 May 2012, 7:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Where I'm going with this is that to many liberal commentators and even liberals I've interacted with, my position just does not exist as far as they're concerned, if you're against the mandate you're for people dying in the street and to HELL with the Constitution (I've literally seen that last point made word for word). That's a fundamental breakdown in empathy for me, not to mention being a prime piece of ends justifying the means thinking and a good example of the "it's the thought that counts" school of rationalizing sometimes seen on the left when flaws in their lawmaking are pointed out. "How are we going to pay for this?" "I don't know, but that doesn't matter because it helps X people!". Stereotype? Yep. Inaccurate? Well...

But maybe some people do believe the ends justify the means in some cases and you're failing to empathize with that. It's simply one of your morals clashing against one of theirs.



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13 May 2012, 8:24 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Where I'm going with this is that to many liberal commentators and even liberals I've interacted with, my position just does not exist as far as they're concerned, if you're against the mandate you're for people dying in the street and to HELL with the Constitution (I've literally seen that last point made word for word). That's a fundamental breakdown in empathy for me, not to mention being a prime piece of ends justifying the means thinking and a good example of the "it's the thought that counts" school of rationalizing sometimes seen on the left when flaws in their lawmaking are pointed out. "How are we going to pay for this?" "I don't know, but that doesn't matter because it helps X people!". Stereotype? Yep. Inaccurate? Well.


I really don't see "liberal" inability to understand your ideology (which is relatively novel - most people use general heuristics when evaluating most matters, including ideological politics ) as being abnormally higher than one would expect under attitude polarization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_polarization


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13 May 2012, 9:28 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Where I'm going with this is that to many liberal commentators and even liberals I've interacted with, my position just does not exist as far as they're concerned, if you're against the mandate you're for people dying in the street and to HELL with the Constitution (I've literally seen that last point made word for word). That's a fundamental breakdown in empathy for me, not to mention being a prime piece of ends justifying the means thinking and a good example of the "it's the thought that counts" school of rationalizing sometimes seen on the left when flaws in their lawmaking are pointed out. "How are we going to pay for this?" "I don't know, but that doesn't matter because it helps X people!". Stereotype? Yep. Inaccurate? Well.


I really don't see "liberal" inability to understand your ideology (which is relatively novel - most people use general heuristics when evaluating most matters, including ideological politics ) as being abnormally higher than one would expect under attitude polarization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_polarization


I think it might have to do with a lack of trust and a familiarity with arguing with conservative Republicans who make the exact same argument, but in their case are complete hypocrites, whether the hypocrisy is willful/intentional or not.



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17 May 2012, 4:30 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Damn, you are good ... theres that vague part about eroding at restraint that pops right out, looks juicy but I smell a trap.

I think I would skip over that and go for "even liberals Ive interacted with", knock that out (anecdote), then "many liberal commentators" - how many? Dismiss the specific examples you no doubt have as more anecdote ... maybe toss in a charge of assumption for that last bit (meh, itd keep you busy) ... still its a fairly peripheral line of attack ... but maybe Id find out more about the vague part ... anyway, I can tell it would be a good, tough fight. This one is a veteran position isnt it? You have had this fight before, I think.


The vagueness is actually due to both me being discrete and not naming names, and my abhorrence of mass-generalizations and sweeping statements that causes me to qualify everything with a most, some, several, in my opinion, I think, etc.

I actually haven't debated the issue itself all that much, but I have debated the attitudes around it quite a bit. Aside from the Constitutional question, the bill itself is much less interesting to me than the different ways people approach it and the reasoning behind their support or opposition.


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17 May 2012, 4:34 pm

marshall wrote:
But maybe some people do believe the ends justify the means in some cases and you're failing to empathize with that. It's simply one of your morals clashing against one of theirs.


There are very few circumstances where I believe the ends justify the means, and I think the very idea is one of the most dangerous ones out there as it can so easily be used to justify nearly any action at all. I don't fail to empathize, I merely disagree; the people I'm talking about CANNOT see my position at all.


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17 May 2012, 9:28 pm

Dox47 wrote:
marshall wrote:
But maybe some people do believe the ends justify the means in some cases and you're failing to empathize with that. It's simply one of your morals clashing against one of theirs.


There are very few circumstances where I believe the ends justify the means, and I think the very idea is one of the most dangerous ones out there as it can so easily be used to justify nearly any action at all. I don't fail to empathize, I merely disagree; the people I'm talking about CANNOT see my position at all.

It might be that they don't believe the constitutional argument is sincere because it has been abused so often in the past. I know your position is sincere, but a lot of conservatives do not appear to actually value liberty or the spirit of the constitution despite their treating it as a kind of sacred object. It's hard to believe otherwise when conservative think tanks and politicians have supported mandates in the past and only jumped on the bandwagon against them recently when they saw how unpopular they were with the public.

In my personal view PPACA looks to be a bungled compromise. If the individual mandate is unconstitutional it should be repealed. My problem is there are a lot of people in this country are in desperate need of healthcare reform and it appears absolutely nothing will be done since one party will object to anything that entails "redistributing" in any way shape or form. This is despite the fact that "redistribution" already occurs since people and businesses who buy private insurance indirectly cover the hospital costs of the uninsured who are simply unable to pay yet cannot be denied treatment.



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18 May 2012, 12:03 am

marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
marshall wrote:
But maybe some people do believe the ends justify the means in some cases and you're failing to empathize with that. It's simply one of your morals clashing against one of theirs.


There are very few circumstances where I believe the ends justify the means, and I think the very idea is one of the most dangerous ones out there as it can so easily be used to justify nearly any action at all. I don't fail to empathize, I merely disagree; the people I'm talking about CANNOT see my position at all.

It might be that they don't believe the constitutional argument is sincere because it has been abused so often in the past. I know your position is sincere, but a lot of conservatives do not appear to actually value liberty or the spirit of the constitution despite their treating it as a kind of sacred object. It's hard to believe otherwise when conservative think tanks and politicians have supported mandates in the past and only jumped on the bandwagon against them recently when they saw how unpopular they were with the public.

In my personal view PPACA looks to be a bungled compromise. If the individual mandate is unconstitutional it should be repealed. My problem is there are a lot of people in this country are in desperate need of healthcare reform and it appears absolutely nothing will be done since one party will object to anything that entails "redistributing" in any way shape or form. This is despite the fact that "redistribution" already occurs since people and businesses who buy private insurance indirectly cover the hospital costs of the uninsured who are simply unable to pay yet cannot be denied treatment.


The right has no business to legitimately b***h about redistribution of wealth, as they are responsible for redistributing wealth upward.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer