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Raptor
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19 Nov 2012, 9:04 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Quote:
The feds had gone into Ruby Ridge under the mistaken belief that Randy Weaver had been in special forces in Vietnam.


Get real.
Special Forces is a relatively small part of the army. A little research could have easily uncovered that he never had been in SF.

They went after him because he wouldn't be an informant for them and they trumped up the sawed off shotgun charges thing to have something to legally hang their hats on. It continued to go to sh** from there.......


Yes, I know about the sawed off shotgun charge. I'm talking about why the feds went in all over kill. That he was supposedly special forces was widely reported in the media at the time. And I agree, it could have been easily checked out - but it wasn't. In fact, Weaver's alleged special forces affiliation was proven to be a lie only years later.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The fact that Weaver's military records went unchecked and the feds went tactical based on rumor should speak volumes either about their intent or their gross ineptness.
Even if they did have justification for going after Randy Weaver on felony charges they had no reason to go after his wife and 14 year old son who both ended up dead along with one deputy marshal.


As I recall, Weaver's son had in fact opened fire on the agents, so it wasn't like they just went out of their way to shoot kids. And Vicky Weaver was killed when the sniper had a clear shot at one of the armed men through the open door - and she stepped in front of them at the last second. To say that the agents simply shot indiscriminately at the Weavers is completely untrue, despite the allegations of uninformed critics of the feds, and friends of the lunatic fringe.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Quote:
As I recall, Weaver's son had in fact opened fire on the agents, so it wasn't like they just went out of their way to shoot kids.

They did not identify themselves and shot the dog for no apparent reason. They were not even in plain view so all in all their identities were unknown and their intentions were clearly hostile.
If I were in that scenario I’d open up on them too since prudency would force me to assume I was going to be capped next for reasons unknown.

Quote:
And Vicky Weaver was killed when the sniper had a clear shot at one of the armed men through the open door - and she stepped in front of them at the last second.

That’s debatable. Even if you’re right the judgment of the sniper team is in question since they were firing at a house not knowing who was on the other side of the walls. A .308 round will go right through a house like that and out the other side and still pack a wallop. About the only way they could justify taking shots like that would be a hostage rescue operation and that’s a maybe.
Shooting someone just for having a weapon on their person doesn’t wash, either.

The old “Just following orders” defense didn't work very well at Nuremberg so there’s no reason for it to work in the US.

Quote:
To say that the agents simply shot indiscriminately at the Weavers is completely untrue, despite the allegations of uninformed critics of the feds, and friends of the lunatic fringe.

In effect they did just that. They made a mess out of the whole investigation and the events that led up to the raid. The failed raid made the situation go from bad to worse. After the failed raid instead of calling a halt to it and cleaning up their mess they, in effect, called in the cavalry. All this over one family and a couple of sawed off shotguns.


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Raptor
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19 Nov 2012, 9:07 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
DerStadtschutz wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DerStadtschutz wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That's where I expect the FBI and ATF to do their jobs, and step in when dangerous people are planning to do insane things with guns.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have 3 words for you...

Waco

Ruby Ridge.


Only the screw ups make it big on the news. Other arrests made by these agencies that go routinely far outnumber those that have gone wrong, and never become media stories.

Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That isn't the point...


Again, screw ups happen. And it should be remembered, the Davidians at Waco and the Weavers at Ruby Ridge were hardly good guys.
I am the first to admit, living so close to where Ruby Ridge had transpired, I have a rather unsympathetic view of Randy Weaver. Sure, the guy got a raw deal with the shotgun set up, but the guy decided he could tell the government to F off after there was a dispute about the court date. That choice - along with his affiliation with the Aryan Nations, which had led the feds to try twisting his arm into becoming an informant with the gun charge - was what had ultimately led to the whole violent blow out. I don't believe for a minute that an ordinary, sane person would put himself in such a situation.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


:roll:
They weren't the kind of people I'd want for neighbors, either, but that's beside the point you're refusing to get.


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19 Nov 2012, 9:15 pm

MXH wrote:
marshall wrote:
http://www.12newsnow.com/story/20088243/az-woman-runs-over-husband-for-not-voting

Also, with all the rabid secession talk I'm not holding my breath that some bastard will try to assassinate the President or start a bloody civil war. I hope conservatives are happy being useful idiot goons for the rich. They are the Frankenstein monster manufactured by the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdock's cancerous meme machine.


half the reason i consider myself conservative is to not be in any way associated with jealous hypocrit idiots like you.


It's hypocrite. Now who am I jealous of? :roll:



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19 Nov 2012, 11:25 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Quote:
The feds had gone into Ruby Ridge under the mistaken belief that Randy Weaver had been in special forces in Vietnam.


Get real.
Special Forces is a relatively small part of the army. A little research could have easily uncovered that he never had been in SF.

They went after him because he wouldn't be an informant for them and they trumped up the sawed off shotgun charges thing to have something to legally hang their hats on. It continued to go to sh** from there.......


Yes, I know about the sawed off shotgun charge. I'm talking about why the feds went in all over kill. That he was supposedly special forces was widely reported in the media at the time. And I agree, it could have been easily checked out - but it wasn't. In fact, Weaver's alleged special forces affiliation was proven to be a lie only years later.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The fact that Weaver's military records went unchecked and the feds went tactical based on rumor should speak volumes either about their intent or their gross ineptness.
Even if they did have justification for going after Randy Weaver on felony charges they had no reason to go after his wife and 14 year old son who both ended up dead along with one deputy marshal.


As I recall, Weaver's son had in fact opened fire on the agents, so it wasn't like they just went out of their way to shoot kids. And Vicky Weaver was killed when the sniper had a clear shot at one of the armed men through the open door - and she stepped in front of them at the last second. To say that the agents simply shot indiscriminately at the Weavers is completely untrue, despite the allegations of uninformed critics of the feds, and friends of the lunatic fringe.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Quote:
As I recall, Weaver's son had in fact opened fire on the agents, so it wasn't like they just went out of their way to shoot kids.

They did not identify themselves and shot the dog for no apparent reason. They were not even in plain view so all in all their identities were unknown and their intentions were clearly hostile.
If I were in that scenario I’d open up on them too since prudency would force me to assume I was going to be capped next for reasons unknown.

Quote:
And Vicky Weaver was killed when the sniper had a clear shot at one of the armed men through the open door - and she stepped in front of them at the last second.

That’s debatable. Even if you’re right the judgment of the sniper team is in question since they were firing at a house not knowing who was on the other side of the walls. A .308 round will go right through a house like that and out the other side and still pack a wallop. About the only way they could justify taking shots like that would be a hostage rescue operation and that’s a maybe.
Shooting someone just for having a weapon on their person doesn’t wash, either.

The old “Just following orders” defense didn't work very well at Nuremberg so there’s no reason for it to work in the US.

Quote:
To say that the agents simply shot indiscriminately at the Weavers is completely untrue, despite the allegations of uninformed critics of the feds, and friends of the lunatic fringe.

In effect they did just that. They made a mess out of the whole investigation and the events that led up to the raid. The failed raid made the situation go from bad to worse. After the failed raid instead of calling a halt to it and cleaning up their mess they, in effect, called in the cavalry. All this over one family and a couple of sawed off shotguns.


As a matter of fact, it's standard practice to terminate dogs out of fear that they may attack the agents. So it's not like the evil, evil feds decided that day that they'd make a pre-pubecent boy cry by killing his dog. The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.
As for Vicki Weaver - again, her death too, is sad. But, as I already stated, the agents had thought they had had a clean shot. And what is often ignored is, the woman was hardly a non-combatant. People who knew her were literally afraid she'd kill her baby before she gave up.
And "just following orders?" I don't think any of the agents there ever made that excuse. I imagine if you asked them, they'd tell you they had followed the book, but sometimes bad things happen.
And people killed over "just a shotgun?" No, it was because Randy Weaver had decided to flip off the federal government, and refused to show up in court.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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19 Nov 2012, 11:29 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DerStadtschutz wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DerStadtschutz wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That's where I expect the FBI and ATF to do their jobs, and step in when dangerous people are planning to do insane things with guns.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have 3 words for you...

Waco

Ruby Ridge.


Only the screw ups make it big on the news. Other arrests made by these agencies that go routinely far outnumber those that have gone wrong, and never become media stories.

Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That isn't the point...


Again, screw ups happen. And it should be remembered, the Davidians at Waco and the Weavers at Ruby Ridge were hardly good guys.
I am the first to admit, living so close to where Ruby Ridge had transpired, I have a rather unsympathetic view of Randy Weaver. Sure, the guy got a raw deal with the shotgun set up, but the guy decided he could tell the government to F off after there was a dispute about the court date. That choice - along with his affiliation with the Aryan Nations, which had led the feds to try twisting his arm into becoming an informant with the gun charge - was what had ultimately led to the whole violent blow out. I don't believe for a minute that an ordinary, sane person would put himself in such a situation.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


:roll:
They weren't the kind of people I'd want for neighbors, either, but that's beside the point you're refusing to get.


It was their reputation among their neighbors as violent white supremacists that led the feds to perhaps go in with over kill. That, and Randy Weaver's own BS about his military history.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 4:50 am

The real measure of just how FUBAR Waco and Ruby Ridge were? The Feds had to Pay Randy Weaver and his son's teenage friend, the teenage friend having actually killed one of the involved officers. Do you have any idea how bad something had to have been for the feds to not only not jail, but PAY someone who shot one of them? Look up the aftermath of Waco and see how much time any of those people served too, again when you see people who killed feds walking out of prison having done little to no time, it's a pretty good indicator that something was seriously wrong with the government's actions.


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20 Nov 2012, 6:13 am

Dox47 wrote:
The real measure of just how FUBAR Waco and Ruby Ridge were? The Feds had to Pay Randy Weaver and his son's teenage friend, the teenage friend having actually killed one of the involved officers. Do you have any idea how bad something had to have been for the feds to not only not jail, but PAY someone who shot one of them? Look up the aftermath of Waco and see how much time any of those people served too, again when you see people who killed feds walking out of prison having done little to no time, it's a pretty good indicator that something was seriously wrong with the government's actions.


I'm not disputing that things went haywire; rather I'm saying things weren't so cut and dry. It wasn't a case where completely sane, innocent people were murdered by the government. And the fact remains, the Weavers, and the remaining Davidians had sympathetic juries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 6:29 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm not disputing that things went haywire; rather I'm saying things weren't so cut and dry. It wasn't a case where completely sane, innocent people were murdered by the government. And the fact remains, the Weavers, and the remaining Davidians had sympathetic juries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Who wouldn't be sympathetic to someone who's family was killed by the state over minor and disputed charges? Oh yeah, you, since in your mind people who hold reprehensible personal beliefs don't have rights. I find that attitude reprehensible, just by the way.
Remember too that at Waco, Koresh offered the ATF access to his compound to come in and inspect the alleged machineguns they were worried about, but they decided that an armed assault would be more fun. Seriously, that was about their level of reasoning on choosing that course of action.

Also, google the term "puppycide" sometime, since you seem to think cops shooting dogs for "officer safety" is a just policy.


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20 Nov 2012, 7:08 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.

The feds were sneaking around on private property scouting out the house and how good of a lookout the Weavers had. The dogs became alerted to their presence. At the time, the Weavers were not expecting federal agents, and went out looking for what they thought might be a wild animal since they ran out of meat. When the two parties crossed paths in the dark, they spooked each other.
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for Vicki Weaver - again, her death too, is sad. But, as I already stated, the agents had thought they had had a clean shot. And what is often ignored is, the woman was hardly a non-combatant. People who knew her were literally afraid she'd kill her baby before she gave up.

It doesn't matter if Lon Horiuchi had a clear line of fire. Vicki Weaver was not armed. That is not a clean kill under any state or federal law- even for law enforcement. Cops have gone to jail for manslaughter or murder 2 for less than that.
Kraichgauer wrote:
And "just following orders?" I don't think any of the agents there ever made that excuse. I imagine if you asked them, they'd tell you they had followed the book, but sometimes bad things happen.

What orders? The DOJ wrote up special rules of engagement just for Ruby Ridge, but their implementation was FUBAR and the F-Troop wannabes in the field played who's on first.
Kraichgauer wrote:
And people killed over "just a shotgun?" No, it was because Randy Weaver had decided to flip off the federal government, and refused to show up in court.

Even the FBI deputy director issued a memo calling the charge against weaver "BS", and the warrant was for Randy weaver's arrest- not Vicki Weaver's summary execution.


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20 Nov 2012, 7:26 am

John_Browning wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.

The feds were sneaking around on private property scouting out the house and how good of a lookout the Weavers had. The dogs became alerted to their presence. At the time, the Weavers were not expecting federal agents, and went out looking for what they thought might be a wild animal since they ran out of meat. When the two parties crossed paths in the dark, they spooked each other.
Kraichgauer wrote:
As for Vicki Weaver - again, her death too, is sad. But, as I already stated, the agents had thought they had had a clean shot. And what is often ignored is, the woman was hardly a non-combatant. People who knew her were literally afraid she'd kill her baby before she gave up.

It doesn't matter if Lon Horiuchi had a clear line of fire. Vicki Weaver was not armed. That is not a clean kill under any state or federal law- even for law enforcement. Cops have gone to jail for manslaughter or murder 2 for less than that.
Kraichgauer wrote:
And "just following orders?" I don't think any of the agents there ever made that excuse. I imagine if you asked them, they'd tell you they had followed the book, but sometimes bad things happen.

What orders? The DOJ wrote up special rules of engagement just for Ruby Ridge, but their implementation was FUBAR and the F-Troop wannabes in the field played who's on first.
Kraichgauer wrote:
And people killed over "just a shotgun?" No, it was because Randy Weaver had decided to flip off the federal government, and refused to show up in court.

Even the FBI deputy director issued a memo calling the charge against weaver "BS", and the warrant was for Randy weaver's arrest- not Vicki Weaver's summary execution.


No one intended Vicki Weaver to get killed. And the fact of the matter is, the sniper was aiming for one of the armed men - and a terrible mistake had been made when she was hit instead.
It ought to be remembered the FBI director had made his statement regarding the memo calling for Weaver's arrest BS only after it was politically appropriate to say so.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 7:41 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm not disputing that things went haywire; rather I'm saying things weren't so cut and dry. It wasn't a case where completely sane, innocent people were murdered by the government. And the fact remains, the Weavers, and the remaining Davidians had sympathetic juries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Who wouldn't be sympathetic to someone who's family was killed by the state over minor and disputed charges? Oh yeah, you, since in your mind people who hold reprehensible personal beliefs don't have rights. I find that attitude reprehensible, just by the way.
Remember too that at Waco, Koresh offered the ATF access to his compound to come in and inspect the alleged machineguns they were worried about, but they decided that an armed assault would be more fun. Seriously, that was about their level of reasoning on choosing that course of action.

Also, google the term "puppycide" sometime, since you seem to think cops shooting dogs for "officer safety" is a just policy.


I never said I didn't sympathize with the loss of life at Ruby Ridge. But I maintain the whole situation was created by Randy Weaver, and that he's no hero. He had admitted that very fact to his lawyer after all was said and done. And when did I say people with reprehensible beliefs didn't have rights? I said the reason why there was such a blow out with the Weavers was because of those insane ideas of his.
And incidentally, I never said the shooting of the dog was a just policy. Rather, I was only stating the reason why the animal had been shot.
I'm sorry if I come across as callous on this subject; that was never my intention. But the fact of the matter is, this sort of thing doesn't happen to ordinary, sane individuals. Yes, Randy Weaver had the right to be insane, but it was that very insanity that had created the situation that led to the loss of his wife and son.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 8:44 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Quote:
As a matter of fact, it's standard practice to terminate dogs out of fear that they may attack the agents. So it's not like the evil, evil feds decided that day that they'd make a pre-pubecent boy cry by killing his dog. The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.

I doubt the Weaves were up to date on current procedures for handling suspect’s dogs nor where they up to date on the fact that feds were present. I thought I’d already stated that clearly enough but I guess not.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I come across as callous on this subject; that was never my intention. But the fact of the matter is, this sort of thing doesn't happen to ordinary, sane individuals. Yes, Randy Weaver had the right to be insane, but it was that very insanity that had created the situation that led to the loss of his wife and son.

Nutters or not it’s not like they were a terrorist cell. In a nutshell it’s not okey-dokey to go after someone’s family for their off the wall political and religious beliefs under the cloak of petty weapons charges and skipping a bogus hearing.
Keep in mind that there are people on the extreme left or suspected terrorists that could find themselves in a similar situation.


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20 Nov 2012, 11:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
The real measure of just how FUBAR Waco and Ruby Ridge were? The Feds had to Pay Randy Weaver and his son's teenage friend, the teenage friend having actually killed one of the involved officers. Do you have any idea how bad something had to have been for the feds to not only not jail, but PAY someone who shot one of them? Look up the aftermath of Waco and see how much time any of those people served too, again when you see people who killed feds walking out of prison having done little to no time, it's a pretty good indicator that something was seriously wrong with the government's actions.


I'm not disputing that things went haywire; rather I'm saying things weren't so cut and dry. It wasn't a case where completely sane, innocent people were murdered by the government. And the fact remains, the Weavers, and the remaining Davidians had sympathetic juries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't think people should be murdered by the government for not being completely sane.



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20 Nov 2012, 12:06 pm

marshall wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
The real measure of just how FUBAR Waco and Ruby Ridge were? The Feds had to Pay Randy Weaver and his son's teenage friend, the teenage friend having actually killed one of the involved officers. Do you have any idea how bad something had to have been for the feds to not only not jail, but PAY someone who shot one of them? Look up the aftermath of Waco and see how much time any of those people served too, again when you see people who killed feds walking out of prison having done little to no time, it's a pretty good indicator that something was seriously wrong with the government's actions.


I'm not disputing that things went haywire; rather I'm saying things weren't so cut and dry. It wasn't a case where completely sane, innocent people were murdered by the government. And the fact remains, the Weavers, and the remaining Davidians had sympathetic juries.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't think people should be murdered by the government for not being completely sane.


Nor do I, even though people on WP have come to the conclusion that I do. Rather, I'm saying that it was Randy Weaver's insane idiocy that got the ball rolling, which led to the deaths of his wife and son.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 12:09 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
As a matter of fact, it's standard practice to terminate dogs out of fear that they may attack the agents. So it's not like the evil, evil feds decided that day that they'd make a pre-pubecent boy cry by killing his dog. The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.

I doubt the Weaves were up to date on current procedures for handling suspect’s dogs nor where they up to date on the fact that feds were present. I thought I’d already stated that clearly enough but I guess not.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I come across as callous on this subject; that was never my intention. But the fact of the matter is, this sort of thing doesn't happen to ordinary, sane individuals. Yes, Randy Weaver had the right to be insane, but it was that very insanity that had created the situation that led to the loss of his wife and son.

Nutters or not it’s not like they were a terrorist cell. In a nutshell it’s not okey-dokey to go after someone’s family for their off the wall political and religious beliefs under the cloak of petty weapons charges and skipping a bogus hearing.
Keep in mind that there are people on the extreme left or suspected terrorists that could find themselves in a similar situation.


No one had ever said they were a terrorist cell. Rather, there was the very real fear that they were dangerous white supremacists - which they were. Weaver's neighbors, who he had threatened, maintained he was raising his son to be a Neo-Nazi soldier.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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20 Nov 2012, 12:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Quote:
As a matter of fact, it's standard practice to terminate dogs out of fear that they may attack the agents. So it's not like the evil, evil feds decided that day that they'd make a pre-pubecent boy cry by killing his dog. The fact remains, the kid had shot at the agents. Yes, it's tragic and even terrible that he died, but the agents were defending themselves.

I doubt the Weaves were up to date on current procedures for handling suspect’s dogs nor where they up to date on the fact that feds were present. I thought I’d already stated that clearly enough but I guess not.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I come across as callous on this subject; that was never my intention. But the fact of the matter is, this sort of thing doesn't happen to ordinary, sane individuals. Yes, Randy Weaver had the right to be insane, but it was that very insanity that had created the situation that led to the loss of his wife and son.

Nutters or not it’s not like they were a terrorist cell. In a nutshell it’s not okey-dokey to go after someone’s family for their off the wall political and religious beliefs under the cloak of petty weapons charges and skipping a bogus hearing.
Keep in mind that there are people on the extreme left or suspected terrorists that could find themselves in a similar situation.


No one had ever said they were a terrorist cell. Rather, there was the very real fear that they were dangerous white supremacists - which they were. Weaver's neighbors, who he had threatened, maintained he was raising his son to be a Neo-Nazi soldier.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


:roll:
You just don't (won't) get it.
:wall: :wall: :wall:


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