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John_Browning
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09 Feb 2013, 11:27 pm

thomas81 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:

It would certainly have been higher on the coalition side,.

Not necessarilly. If more American troops had died at the start of the war it might have pushed the government to pack up and wrap up instead of prolonging the war.

Iraq wasn't in a position to put up that level of resistance- especially with the conscript units' eagerness to desert or surrender.


neither was the Viet Cong, if we apply the same stretch of logic, but somehow they managed it.

That's debatable. LBJ tried to wage a politically correct war that was never designed to be winnable in the real world. How well we would have done if we used a more conventional strategy (or even a nuclear option) is hard to tell who would have won. Keep in mind they lost about 2 million fighters compared to our 58,000.


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xenon13
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10 Feb 2013, 2:09 pm

2 million fighters? I hope it's not being suggested that not a single civilian was killed.



J-Greens
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10 Feb 2013, 2:44 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
The remarks were in context of someone refering to america as oil grabbers.but is it really worse than european land grabbing.im not sure how you can say that statement is wrong

In that context, I agree with what you are saying, but your remarks weren't made in that context.


vermontsavant wrote:
europeans view america as imperialistic,facist barbarians but who were they 100 years ago

Note: Not just Europeans, I'd hedge my money on that being the global perception of America. I'd also wager my money on more countries and people holding a more positive perception of China than the US. This aggression into the Middle East (Including supporting Israel) damaging trust & respect has negatively set America back a decade, if not entire generations in some parts of the world. So, you think, that since America has a long way to catch up with Europe, it's allowed to make the same mistakes? Sure, the best lessons are learnt the hard way, but back then, we didn't have weapons that threaten humanity as a whole.



J-Greens
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10 Feb 2013, 2:46 pm

John_Browning wrote:
. LBJ tried to wage a politically correct war that was never designed to be winnable in the real world.

Dubya just repeated the same mistake and America still hasn't learnt that lesson.


John_Browning wrote:
. if we used a more conventional strategy (or even a nuclear option)

Are you suggesting using Nuclear weapons is an option? 8O



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10 Feb 2013, 5:30 pm

thomas81 wrote:
WBBC as in Westboro Baptits Church?
They are not southern based if that’s who your talking about.

meh.


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Hmmm, did you become a conscientious objector after or before flunking your RAF medical exam?
I’m guessing after.
Kind of makes it a sour grapes thing, eh?

Not really. it was a host of things apart from that that made my opinions gallop to the left. The abolishment of free university education for example was the straw that broke the camels back. The general inequities of the class system had been playing on my mind before then. I was generally sympathetic towards communist ideas before the RAF rejected me. Even after my failed RAF commission i toyed with the idea of joining the Officer training corps which was basically the student extension of the army.


Raptor wrote:

Yeah, you’d be speaking German if it weren’t for US intervention in that one.


yeah and if Germany had won you'd have had 2 hostile superpowers to deal with rather than one.

also shame you were late again.


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10 Feb 2013, 5:50 pm

Raptor wrote:
Yeah, you’d be speaking German if it weren’t for US intervention in that one.
Oh, what balls.
America never actually entered WWII and remained neutral for nearly half of it.
The war began with Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939, although Britain and France did not declare war on Germany until two days later. The USA found itself at war with Japan following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, on December 7th, 1941. Four days later, Hitler declared war on the USA.
Thus the USA was finally dragged into the Second World War two years, three months and four days after Britain and France responded to Germany's aggression.


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thomas81
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10 Feb 2013, 6:06 pm

Not to mention the USA's contribution is grossly exaggerated (usually by themselves).

The Soviets made a greater sacrifice than anyone, in terms of lives, territory and honour.


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John_Browning
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10 Feb 2013, 6:17 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Not to mention the USA's contribution is grossly exaggerated (usually by themselves).

The Soviets made a greater sacrifice than anyone, in terms of lives, territory and honour.

The Soviet sacrifices were largely due to Stalin's pathological narcissistic leadership and also the fact that shortly before the war he purged all the officers that were competent enough that he feared they could challenge his leadership. Executing a large part of his army that retreated in 1941 didn't help them either.


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thomas81
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10 Feb 2013, 6:25 pm

John_Browning wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Not to mention the USA's contribution is grossly exaggerated (usually by themselves).

The Soviets made a greater sacrifice than anyone, in terms of lives, territory and honour.

The Soviet sacrifices were largely due to Stalin's pathological narcissistic leadership and also the fact that shortly before the war he purged all the officers that were competent enough that he feared they could challenge his leadership. Executing a large part of his army that retreated in 1941 didn't help them either.


Nontheless, had it not been for their added effort there would have been an additional 5 million Wehrmacht troops in France leading to the defeat of the allies.


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10 Feb 2013, 6:29 pm

John_Browning wrote:
The Soviet sacrifices were largely due to Stalin's pathological narcissistic leadership and also the fact that shortly before the war he purged all the officers that were competent enough that he feared they could challenge his leadership.
But at last they were there, laying down lives while the USA sat back and looked on.


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10 Feb 2013, 6:36 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Yeah, you’d be speaking German if it weren’t for US intervention in that one.
Oh, what balls.
America never actually entered WWII and remained neutral for nearly half of it.
The war began with Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939, although Britain and France did not declare war on Germany until two days later. The USA found itself at war with Japan following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, on December 7th, 1941. Four days later, Hitler declared war on the USA.
Thus the USA was finally dragged into the Second World War two years, three months and four days after Britain and France responded to Germany's aggression.

Late or not, what would the outcome have been without the US?


thomas81 wrote:
Not to mention the USA's contribution is grossly exaggerated (usually by themselves).
The Soviets made a greater sacrifice than anyone, in terms of lives, territory and honour.

They didn't have the advantage of having an ocean to separate them from the enemy, either.
Stalin can take some credit for their losses and suffering, especially early in the war after he purged the officer corps in addition to other typically paranoid communist crimes against humanity.


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thomas81
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10 Feb 2013, 6:41 pm

Raptor wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Yeah, you’d be speaking German if it weren’t for US intervention in that one.
Oh, what balls.
America never actually entered WWII and remained neutral for nearly half of it.
The war began with Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939, although Britain and France did not declare war on Germany until two days later. The USA found itself at war with Japan following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, on December 7th, 1941. Four days later, Hitler declared war on the USA.
Thus the USA was finally dragged into the Second World War two years, three months and four days after Britain and France responded to Germany's aggression.

Late or not, what would the outcome have been without the US?

depends. After the battle of britain (which had no american help i might add) Hitler had all but given up interest in invading the UK. I dont think the Germans would have defeated the Soviet Union, with or without American intervention.


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10 Feb 2013, 6:43 pm

Raptor wrote:
Late or not, what would the outcome have been without the US?
You would have been in no position to strut about thumping your chest and tweaking history? That's so tedious.


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10 Feb 2013, 7:09 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Yeah, you’d be speaking German if it weren’t for US intervention in that one.
Oh, what balls.
America never actually entered WWII and remained neutral for nearly half of it.
The war began with Germany's invasion of Poland on September 1st, 1939, although Britain and France did not declare war on Germany until two days later. The USA found itself at war with Japan following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, on December 7th, 1941. Four days later, Hitler declared war on the USA.
Thus the USA was finally dragged into the Second World War two years, three months and four days after Britain and France responded to Germany's aggression.

Late or not, what would the outcome have been without the US?

depends. After the battle of britain (which had no american help i might add) Hitler had all but given up interest in invading the UK. I dont think the Germans would have defeated the Soviet Union, with or without American intervention.


Cornflake wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Late or not, what would the outcome have been without the US?
You would have been in no position to strut about thumping your chest and tweaking history? That's so tedious.


I think it's safe to assume that the axis would have held a good chunk of Europe, Asia, and the Pacific with no effective opposition for a long time had the US not been involved even if late.
How long would Hitler have remained un-interested in Britain with it lying so close to his continent?
I'm betting he would have had another go at it sooner or later once he had better resources to throw into it.

Either way I'm done with this until we get back to why exactly an American sniper (any sniper for that matter) is a "serial killer".
I haven't seen that answered intelligently yet.


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10 Feb 2013, 9:55 pm

The Soviets would have captured all of Europe had the US and the other Western allies not landed on the continent.

The real reason the Japanese surrendered by the way was the Soviet advance through Manchukuo that completely shocked the Japanese so as they feared a landing in Hokkaido. With the Soviets that would have meant the end of the imperial system there.



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11 Feb 2013, 12:51 am

J-Greens wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The remarks were in context of someone refering to america as oil grabbers.but is it really worse than european land grabbing.im not sure how you can say that statement is wrong

In that context, I agree with what you are saying, but your remarks weren't made in that context.


vermontsavant wrote:
europeans view america as imperialistic,facist barbarians but who were they 100 years ago

Note: Not just Europeans, I'd hedge my money on that being the global perception of America. I'd also wager my money on more countries and people holding a more positive perception of China than the US. This aggression into the Middle East (Including supporting Israel) damaging trust & respect has negatively set America back a decade, if not entire generations in some parts of the world. So, you think, that since America has a long way to catch up with Europe, it's allowed to make the same mistakes? Sure, the best lessons are learnt the hard way, but back then, we didn't have weapons that threaten humanity as a whole.
my remarks were made in the context of thomas 81 calling america oil grabbers.that was the context,read the post


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