Zionism is no different than Nazism

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Here is the full UN definition of genocide-

..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

As Jacoby said on another thread, the Israeli policy is to make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they eventually leave.

The last thing I am susceptible is Zionist propaganda.

That is not my point, they were Semitic people as well I of course. The evidence is actually tribal history, there is a group in the region including Lebanon who trance their ancestrally to places as far a field as Yemen. Some even claim direct line to Mohamed. Of course there was settlement all over the place an Semitic peoples. In fact part of the stupidity is Semitic peoples not getting on. This was a transient area, the problem lies is why take issue on this particular area an not others? Nothing to do with holy land of course and they are not the only show in town...

My other point was all this rhetoric about Western imperialists was to point out that Arab imperialism wasn't all that different. Your point was to say it was a fairish system. I would have to disagree, not to say it was worse but tell you the situation was just as mixed. Both systems did bad things, and also brought some advancements. Arab imperialism wasn't totally free from religious persecution, for its entire history, it also supported slavery (an arguably still does in the Gulf, and some places in north Africa), and people were displaced and killed as it expanded. Secondly how is Arab occupation different from any other occupation, an colonization is a form of occupation? However I have a pragmatic view of history, so I don't believe in historic reparation. For instance I disagree with apologizing to the crusades, and why apologize for the crusades, if you don't get an equal apology back?

Now back onto the core of my argument:

The population of the Palestinian territories in 1947 around 750,000 compared to Lebanon's 1 million. The land mass 6,060 sq miles compared to Lebanon 4,036 sq miles. So if a larger population in a smaller area (and a much more diverse population) can get it together why not the Palestinians?

No matter how you cut it and what your moral argument is, the Palestinian Authority has made fundamentally terrible decisions over this years. It now has a much, smaller territory which has quite a is to do with refusing to make peace with Israel. Think how different things would be if they, actual made the most of what they had (which was a lot more than they had for centuries). We would not be here, Palestine would be a country, and even Gaza and West Bank would adjoin.

The quality of life in Gaza, is much worse than it was in 1947. So this is what I mean about digging themselves a hole. f**k nationalism, if this is is what it amounts to.

I also point out that the Arab Villages in Israel, they were allowed to stay, under Israel. Only a few chose to do that. They chose to fight, or resist.

So this argument it is all to do with humanitarian need, is not really true, it actually to do with the fact, they cannot accept, that the holy land is not completely under their control, and this is an antisemitism (although not all anti-Zionism, or anti-Isreal rhetoric is)

I know your position is very popular in the middle East but try to weigh up both sides from a neurtal stance. I used have more sympathy for your position, and I still sympathize with the civilian population. However I think the neurosis very real, not a metaphor, and this a learned behavior, and the treatment is similar to if you had a friend who was neurotic. You don't reinforce the same neurotic behavior. If that sounds patronizing, I'm sorry but I genuinely believe this, and care about each and every one of them. The behavior of the PLA and to a much larger extent Hamas has been very self destructive. This is not good for the civilian population.

I have talked at length, about forcing the two side to take responsibility without relying on the international community, by forcing incentive which is lacking. Incentive is a critical part of resolution and the leaders, have staked their whole careers on their entrenched positions, which why incentive is lacking. This involves removing the mediators and envoy of every country (which is enabling not helping). Tell them in no uncertain term they both must meet regularly, or the both get sanctioned. Similarly any behavior designed to sabotage this process should be sanctioned. There will not be any official comment from any country on endgame (2 state, 3 state, 0 state, etc), as this has to be decided by the two parties. Also any rhetoric coming from official of the two side to the international, should be noted but receive no response.

I was born in Johannesburg son of a British diplomat who was assigned Black and protest politics as part of his job, and he met up will various leaders of movements. The main reason why we have the South Africa we have today, is becuase incentive was created. This was due to a combination on internal moments and international response. However when it came to the actual resolution, this was very much owned by the South Africans. Where as in this crisis, the international community, is far too involved in the process, and this causes more problems than it solves.

For instance this latest spate, it hard to imagine it would have kick off as bad and as early, if Kerry hadn't been pushing his US peace process. Both Abbas (Abu Mazen) and Netanyahu were desperately scrambling for ways to kill this process, without appearing to. Neither of them wanted to come together at this point, that much they agreed on, and the read off a well rehearsed script designed to kill the process. This made things significantly worse because they really went to town, both of them. Kerry was a naive and it was a vanity project (I'm not saying Kerry is responsible for bloodshed, just he was stupid in how he handled it).


My criticism of Israel and especially Netanyahu, is they are overestimating how much millage and tolerance the populations of their allies have to unadulterated foreign relations in support of everything Israel does. Israel need to be more atune to this, hotheadedness isn't going to solicit a good response. People also wonder why their foreign policy and national interest is so skewed in favour of a samll country which on the face of it shouldn't have this much sway, historic relations aside. This isn't really to do with whether you agree or disagree but the amount of time a resources dedicated to it. Of course people want to support Isreals right to thrive, but that is not a blank queue in support of any Isreali policy, and any material support is naturally going to come with some situation.

Netanyahu need to stop blasting off his hot head, and biting the hand that feed hims. Israel need to adapt more and and understand that each ally has separate foreign policy interest, just like Israel. This too is a neurotic behavior. Israel need to take more responsibility for it actions and be more self-sufficient. Much of foreign policy in any country has a lot to do with domestic politics, but he really needs to consider the damage his rhetoric and temperament is doing to Isreals reputation, it doesn't come across as calm and in control, or even that realistic. He is basically ordering, and making demands of countries that don't have to listen if they don't want to.

Really? Israel (well, along with Egypt) pretty much controls all ways in and out of Gaza - by land, sea and air. If Israel's goal was to get all the Palestinians out of Gaza, it could simply implement a policy allowing them out but not back in again, in concert with making conditions there so terrible that no one in their right mind would want to stay, and soon enough, everyone would leave.

You are putting words in my mouth, I have never said that Arab imperialism was better, what I was saying that it didn't exterminate a whole population to take its place, like Lebanon and Palestine.

How few the population of Palestinians is irrelevant. it doesn't justify anything!! It doesn't mean sh**! How about to take lands of Canada just because it's scarcely populated.

And oh, the population was 1.2 millions in 1947 , and there were 700k Jewish refugees. Check your numbers.

I don't know what you are smoking but the British are largely Anglo Saxon, in England, and even the earlier came form central and western Europe also and spread to places like Wales. In they were Germanic/central European cultures and invaded by later Germanic cultures, and later still Normans descended from Vikings. The Normans were a massive influence. The Romans, we abandoned their culture, which is why you will find few straight roads other than the odd Roman road. Even their town pride and joy Londinium, you will see completely ran roughshod over Roman culture. Just ask a London cabbie, who has to learn the "knowledge".

In Paris they have road that starfish into out from the center to the perimeter, which is why decent is quickly put down, and how the Nazis found it easy to enter. This is a very different story in London. Try driving into the centre with tanks in one single offensive.

Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the ?conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.?

Sharing a plan for the destruction of Gaza in a letter addressed to Netanyahu on his Facebook page on August 1, Feiglin wrote ?What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country ? our country exclusively, including Gaza.?

Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to ?turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,? in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel.

He called for tent encampments where the Palestinian civilian population would be ?concentrated? to be established along the Sinai border until relevant emigration destinations are determined, adding that the supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected while they are ?shelled with maximum fire power? in order to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas as well as its means of communication and of logistics.

?Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,? he said.

Israeli Deputy Speaker of Knesset calls for concentration camps



So, ugh... you guys were saying?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtyLoxqEQiM[/youtube]

About ten years ago, I was at someone's house when someone else who I had met came buy. The homeowner and the other visitor, a relative of the homeowner, started a conversation that had me shaking me head in disbelief.

According to them, the people of the United States are, in fact, the "Lost Tribe of Israel" and so we are all Jewish!

I'm pretty sure that neither one of them have any Jewish ancestors.

Yeah, the White Christian Identity Movement. We've had to deal with those idiots east of the state line with Idaho, when they had their Aryan Nations compound near Hayden Lake.