The Israel Empire plan.

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I'm not sure where you live, but around here they are fairly divided on the subject. Almost all believe in a strong Israel, and a smaller majority believe Palestine should cease to exist, but it seems fairly divided on why Palestine should be absorbed into Israel.



Seeing as how Palestinians have been losing their property to Israel for quite some time, can you see why some of them take up arms and why some would support those who do? I don't see violence leading to anything other than more violence, but I wish that both sides would stop killing and start realizing that there is no us and them. There is just us.



Not that it applies to this particular situation, but there are plenty of places they left without major conflicts being left behind. They spanned a quarter of the globe at one point and a majority of those places didn't decend into violent chaos and anarchy.



And you are convinced that Palestine shouldn't exist in the first place. To be honest, Palestine is in the exact same place that Israel was at the beginning. So there's really nothing Palestine can do that will make you happy, except to go away. Now, if you're willing to sit there being disgruntled without supporting armed attacks on Palestiniand civilians, that means peace is possible. But if it means you're happy to support armed attacks on Palestine until it's gone, then I'm afraid you make peace quite impossible.

Since Palestine is there, and their extremists respond to Israel's aggression that you seem to support, and you don't like the consequences of the responses, then maybe you want to start negotiating with the Israeli far righters about how they'd like to resolve the situation by either ceding the land or eradicating their own hatred.

Barring that, perhaps you could learn to live with Palestine and make the best of the situation, which -- if that's how it was handled generally -- would mean that within 30-40 years, the current antagonisms would look lunatic. Of course it would be helpful then to drop the wild-eyed stuff about how all of Palestine's bent on the destruction of Israel.[/quote]

It is not that I think Israel wants to take over all of the Gulf region, but it is quite apparent that they want to evict/kill/frighten off all Palestinians and seize/destroy their property/homes.

Just look at this most recent event. Three teens kidnapped and murdered by NOT Hamas, so Israel performs a series of raids, arresting 400 Hamas supporters and seizing another batch of property. Rockets are launched in retaliation (and not just by Hamas, who takes the blame for any extremist action taken in the region). Israel uses this as justification for more widespread destruction and as a method to further solidify the current hard line government's control. Even the beginnings of this latest clash a from seeds of the 2012 conflict. In January 2012, the conflict began when Speaker of the Hamas-dominated Palestinian Parliament Aziz Duwaik was arrested on charges of membership in an illegal organization. Then Israel assassinated Secretary-general of the PRC, another senior PRC member and two additional Palestinians. Then followed a series of small clashes between individual Palestinians and individual Israelis, escalating tensions. In June Hours after a bill to legalize settlement outposts is rejected, Benjamin Netanyahu orders the construction of 300 new homes in the West Bank, followed by an additional 500+ settler homes announced by Israeli construction minister in the West Bank. After this, it proceeds with the all too familiar progression. Ineffective rocket fire followed by Israeli widespread death and destruction in Gaza, all reported by Israel as being military targets.

In fact, you can trace the beginning of the major Palestinian uprisings to 1987, the first of which was a response to escalating attacks (many on Palestinians who were very vocal about Israeli oppression, and who Israel claimed were miltants with no proof ever provided) and the endless occupation by Israel.

They have been taking turns violating the numerous cease fires ever since.

I love the assumptions people are making here about my views on a national Palestine.

If it can exist without being a terrorist state whose aim is to wipe out Israel? Sure, why not? On the other hand, if it's going to be a terrorist-run death-to-Israel state, then no, it would be very silly to give up control of the borders, because it'd just turn into a massive arms convoy.

In other words: Up to Arabs. Play nice, then sure.

SOG: If Israel wants to wipe out the Palestinians, they're doing an uncharacteristically piss-poor job. Because the clock is now going on 50 years, and these are people capable of taking out entire air forces, faraway nuclear power plants, etc. While also living lives and building world-class industries and university programs and the like. They're also doing decidedly odd things like ceding territory to the people they supposedly want to exterminate, which, strangely enough, was never part of the Nazi or Tsarist or anyone else's "exterminate them" playbook. Donations of baby industries and goods to such people, also, not in the usual game.

Have they been *good* to the Palestinians? Doesn't look like it from here. Though admittedly I can understand some grimness about people who show considerable support for terrorism against you and live right next door.

What I think: If you could excise Hamas and jihad from Palestine, the two sides would get on fine and do pretty well together. Every Palestinian I've known personally has been an eminently reasonable, forbearing, and civil person who shows the same kind of attention to calm that most Israelis of my acquaintance do -- it's dangerous to throw rhetoric around, and they don't want to start fights. And while there is a faction of Israelis that is utterly dangerous and stupid about the settlements, they have also been willing and able to stop that s**t when it counts, even willing to send the military in to remove settlers. I do not see that the Palestinian Authority has the same control over Hamas, unfortunately, and that's the sticking point.

It's better when people from Ohio are advocating?

Precisely what everyone said about PLO 10 years ago . . .



I agree with this sentiment, which is why I am so bothered by the treatment of the many based on the actions of the few.

Why would you assume I thought it was better? I am merely stating that I (personally) think that better drawn borders would alleviate a lot of the pressure that has built up in the region.

Vote where? Who doesn't accept this? Some fringe groups. They had a Palestinian state in 1947, pretty much.

We need to de-internationalize the situation. Only the Palestinians and the Israelis can solve this, no other country or international body has helped the situation. There are far too many players involved. Do you think that they would have resolved the South Africa situation if they had that many players sticking their neck in. All this does is create distance between the too sides. We enable failure.

What we need to do it force both sides to meet, by sanctioning them when they fail to meet, or sabotage the process. First on their leaders but eventually on citizens, slowly, as the are the ones that have to power to make or break leaders. This is the only thing the international community can and should do, beside refusing to comment on any rhetoric coming the region, and not commenting on endgame (one state, two state three state, zero state, etc). Everything should be open to the two parties.

Lack of incentive is a problem the need to be solved. These leader their whole career are based on their positions, so of course they will not change readily. This way incentive is created.

Better drawn border would help the practical needs, such the fact that practically Gaza is unlikely to have the ingredient necessary to make a nation state, and it is too isolated from West Bank, to govern.

However most of the issues aren't practical unfortunately, it is more about the holy cities, and much less about the villages and houses. That is the red herring of the previous century.

Both of you are wrong! After the trail of tears and all that rot, they were offered U.S. Citizenship, ad choose not to accept. The only reason they live on reservations is because they do not want to own land, and do not want to be part of the U.S.
They reserve that land because they think at least some of the U.S. should remain unowned. It is like owning it so no one else can, in oreder to protect it the way our ancestors did.

I am part native american, but think it is foolish to live on a reservation because of multiple reasons.

Yes. Like everyone else. The unfortunate thing is that the few keep firing rockets. This seaport business, which the Gazans need desperately, will likewise go nowhere because Hamas will not disarm.