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One way to push the U.S. toward metric right now

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hurtloam
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08 Oct 2016, 4:12 pm

This is hilarious Britain switched to metric long before I started school and no one died.



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08 Oct 2016, 4:32 pm

When there are enough business reasons to convert, then it will happen.

No one really cares. Americans buy their coke and pepsi products in liter and two liter bottles and really don't get upset about it.

People who use European and Japanese equipment have metric tools already. It's not a real problem.

Mars Climate Orbiter was a problem and created a powerful business case for Lockheed Martin to get serious about metric measures.

In general this is only an issue when some politician wants to stir up witless nationalism to get some group mobilized so they can be used for something else.


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08 Oct 2016, 5:17 pm

ZenDen wrote:
I saw a brief clip yesterday, on TV, about different forms of government.
One of the subjects was how governments view and govern their populace.
An example was the Nazi government of Adolph Hitler.

Briefly they mentioned the totalitarian government in Germany during those days
was predicated upon the belief the populace was not capable of governing itself and
needed to be instructed in every manner. Perfect for an insane individual like A.H.
to run things the way he wanted.

We've pretty much the opposite in the U.S. because of something we (in the U.S.)
call DEMOCRACY. Now people in other countries that do not have our style of
home-grown Democracy may not understand what this means.

In many other countries in the world there is more of a TOTALITARIAN attitude,
and the people who grew up with, and are accustomed to this rigid type look at the
U.S. and think: "How sloppy and disorganized." and "How can they NOT use the far
superior metric system?" And as far as it goes this makes sense.

And, yes. Our Democracy may seem flawed and clumsy to outsiders or those who
pay little attention to the goings on of government, but to many this "sloppy"
difference is part of what makes out country GREAT. Not to say there are not detractors
amongst us that would promote a more TOTALITARIAN form of government. But
our form of government put astronauts on the moon (and YES I'm proud of it...why not?)
and other countries with all their metrics could NOT do so. This shows us the superiority
of our way of doing things...but it has nothing to do with the metric controversy.

We love our Democracy. We may not always show it. But this is the reason, I believe,
why the OP and many others can not understand our actions. WE DON'T WANT IT. NO
OTHE REASON IS REQUIRED. And we don't much care if all of Europe and every industrialist
in the world whines about it either.

Thank you.

How it has anything to do with metric? Either the metric or the customary system need a government or some other organization to define the measures to prevent confusion and abuse to allow a industrial society; meaning that in no way the customary system is less "totalitarian" that the metric one. By the way the metric system was created when France tried to become a democracy and was born of the enlightenment. The French Republic didn't worked well the first time, true; by it has noting to do with metric and without standardizing their system of measure they would not been able to get through the industrial revolution. (Before the metric standardization the french customary system varied by locality and it was a mess.)


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beneficii
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08 Oct 2016, 8:34 pm

ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
(See the last 3 posts on page 6.)

So show us your evidence, ZenDen, or are we supposed to depend solely on your word?


This is one:
beneficii wrote:

The FDA and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend the use of metric-only instructions and dosing tools in children's medicines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643

A study found that having both metric and customary increases the number of errors parents made in the medicines they were asked to dose for their children. These errors can have consequences for children, resulting in them either receiving too little of the medicine and not benefiting or receiving too much and getting more side effects as a result. The metric-only group had fewer errors.

This shows that having both systems increases confusion and makes errors more likely. There should be only one system to eliminate this effect. Of course, it won't eliminate errors entirely, but it will make them less frequent.

It seems these testers played a little trick on these children's parents, who were NOT accustomed to the metric measurement system. (Please tell me EXACTLY what the testers thought they were doing.)

These very ignorant people set up these people to fail.

We have over 300 million people using the present system of weights and measures in the U.S. and someone thinks it's better to give patient doses in metric form????? And are surprised when problems ensue????? Please check the information you present for reasonableness.


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

Here's the link again to the article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643


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0_equals_true
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09 Oct 2016, 5:09 am

The Uk hasn't fully adopted the metric system anyway.

Speed signs are in mph, distance in in miles.

Weight measurement are used side by side.

There are advantages to measurement that are very divisible like 12.

Some of the Imperial measurement are just random like Stone.



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09 Oct 2016, 9:19 am

Tollorin wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I saw a brief clip yesterday, on TV, about different forms of government.
One of the subjects was how governments view and govern their populace.
An example was the Nazi government of Adolph Hitler.

Briefly they mentioned the totalitarian government in Germany during those days
was predicated upon the belief the populace was not capable of governing itself and
needed to be instructed in every manner. Perfect for an insane individual like A.H.
to run things the way he wanted.

We've pretty much the opposite in the U.S. because of something we (in the U.S.)
call DEMOCRACY. Now people in other countries that do not have our style of
home-grown Democracy may not understand what this means.

In many other countries in the world there is more of a TOTALITARIAN attitude,
and the people who grew up with, and are accustomed to this rigid type look at the
U.S. and think: "How sloppy and disorganized." and "How can they NOT use the far
superior metric system?" And as far as it goes this makes sense.

And, yes. Our Democracy may seem flawed and clumsy to outsiders or those who
pay little attention to the goings on of government, but to many this "sloppy"
difference is part of what makes out country GREAT. Not to say there are not detractors
amongst us that would promote a more TOTALITARIAN form of government. But
our form of government put astronauts on the moon (and YES I'm proud of it...why not?)
and other countries with all their metrics could NOT do so. This shows us the superiority
of our way of doing things...but it has nothing to do with the metric controversy.

We love our Democracy. We may not always show it. But this is the reason, I believe,
why the OP and many others can not understand our actions. WE DON'T WANT IT. NO
OTHE REASON IS REQUIRED. And we don't much care if all of Europe and every industrialist
in the world whines about it either.

Thank you.


How it has anything to do with metric? Either the metric or the customary system need a government or some other organization to define the measures to prevent confusion and abuse to allow a industrial society; meaning that in no way the customary system is less "totalitarian" that the metric one. By the way the metric system was created when France tried to become a democracy and was born of the enlightenment. The French Republic didn't worked well the first time, true; by it has noting to do with metric and without standardizing their system of measure they would not been able to get through the industrial revolution. (Before the metric standardization the french customary system varied by locality and it was a mess.)


Hi Tollorin. Sorry for the obscurity.

During this discussion it's been pointed out to the OP, repeatedly, that the people of this country are not interested at this time in adopting metrics as our national system of weights and measures. It's been clearly phrased by several people on the forum to indicate: ...the people, without overriding personal reasons, are not interested in the huge mess and expense of such a change. But despite these statements the OP plows ahead with the crusade as though nothing has been said.

My thought was to try to bring a little clarity and understanding to some people who may not have experienced our form of government first hand. To us the voice of the people (although diminished recently) means something different than it would in a more totalitarian theme, where the government has decided it will make all of the important decisions for the populace. It appears the OP doesn't attach much importance to this difference and therefor can not understand why we do not use his/her ideas. I hope this will help.



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09 Oct 2016, 9:35 am

beneficii wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
(See the last 3 posts on page 6.)

So show us your evidence, ZenDen, or are we supposed to depend solely on your word?


This is one:
beneficii wrote:

The FDA and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend the use of metric-only instructions and dosing tools in children's medicines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643

A study found that having both metric and customary increases the number of errors parents made in the medicines they were asked to dose for their children. These errors can have consequences for children, resulting in them either receiving too little of the medicine and not benefiting or receiving too much and getting more side effects as a result. The metric-only group had fewer errors.

This shows that having both systems increases confusion and makes errors more likely. There should be only one system to eliminate this effect. Of course, it won't eliminate errors entirely, but it will make them less frequent.

It seems these testers played a little trick on these children's parents, who were NOT accustomed to the metric measurement system. (Please tell me EXACTLY what the testers thought they were doing.)

These very ignorant people set up these people to fail.

We have over 300 million people using the present system of weights and measures in the U.S. and someone thinks it's better to give patient doses in metric form????? And are surprised when problems ensue????? Please check the information you present for reasonableness.


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

Here's the link again to the article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

So this test is done in the U.S. where everyone uses something other than the metric system. But you don't even mention any possibilities of confusion when testing is done in metrics?????

And some people are required to use metrics only. But the study doesn't say if any of the participants have been tested for any familiarity with the metric system (which I concede is easier to teach).

And some people use metrics coupled with our customary system. THIS is the reason I say the participants were "set up to fail." On it's face it's ludicrous.

And, by the way, it exactly proves my point as it directly points to the confusion, harm, and possibly deaths by trying to "inject" the metric system into an unwilling populace. Thank you for pointing this out.



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09 Oct 2016, 9:39 am

0_equals_true wrote:
The Uk hasn't fully adopted the metric system anyway.

Speed signs are in mph, distance in in miles.

Weight measurement are used side by side.

There are advantages to measurement that are very divisible like 12.

Some of the Imperial measurement are just random like Stone.


In the news here the conversion sounded like a "done deal." The last news clip I caught said that you could no longer go to a tavern and have a "pint" and a beautiful heritage was lost.

I'm glad to hear this is not true.



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09 Oct 2016, 10:36 am

ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
(See the last 3 posts on page 6.)

So show us your evidence, ZenDen, or are we supposed to depend solely on your word?


This is one:
beneficii wrote:

The FDA and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend the use of metric-only instructions and dosing tools in children's medicines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643

A study found that having both metric and customary increases the number of errors parents made in the medicines they were asked to dose for their children. These errors can have consequences for children, resulting in them either receiving too little of the medicine and not benefiting or receiving too much and getting more side effects as a result. The metric-only group had fewer errors.

This shows that having both systems increases confusion and makes errors more likely. There should be only one system to eliminate this effect. Of course, it won't eliminate errors entirely, but it will make them less frequent.

It seems these testers played a little trick on these children's parents, who were NOT accustomed to the metric measurement system. (Please tell me EXACTLY what the testers thought they were doing.)

These very ignorant people set up these people to fail.

We have over 300 million people using the present system of weights and measures in the U.S. and someone thinks it's better to give patient doses in metric form????? And are surprised when problems ensue????? Please check the information you present for reasonableness.


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

Here's the link again to the article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

So this test is done in the U.S. where everyone uses something other than the metric system. But you don't even mention any possibilities of confusion when testing is done in metrics?????

And some people are required to use metrics only. But the study doesn't say if any of the participants have been tested for any familiarity with the metric system (which I concede is easier to teach).

And some people use metrics coupled with our customary system. THIS is the reason I say the participants were "set up to fail." On it's face it's ludicrous.

And, by the way, it exactly proves my point as it directly points to the confusion, harm, and possibly deaths by trying to "inject" the metric system into an unwilling populace. Thank you for pointing this out.


Obviously, unfamiliarity with metric units wasn't that much of a problem, because the parents who worked in metric-only had fewer errors than those who used dual units.

As I've said before, if you no longer wish to discuss the topic, you may refrain from visiting the thread.


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09 Oct 2016, 11:12 am

beneficii wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
beneficii wrote:
(See the last 3 posts on page 6.)

So show us your evidence, ZenDen, or are we supposed to depend solely on your word?


This is one:
beneficii wrote:

The FDA and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend the use of metric-only instructions and dosing tools in children's medicines:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643

A study found that having both metric and customary increases the number of errors parents made in the medicines they were asked to dose for their children. These errors can have consequences for children, resulting in them either receiving too little of the medicine and not benefiting or receiving too much and getting more side effects as a result. The metric-only group had fewer errors.

This shows that having both systems increases confusion and makes errors more likely. There should be only one system to eliminate this effect. Of course, it won't eliminate errors entirely, but it will make them less frequent.

It seems these testers played a little trick on these children's parents, who were NOT accustomed to the metric measurement system. (Please tell me EXACTLY what the testers thought they were doing.)

These very ignorant people set up these people to fail.

We have over 300 million people using the present system of weights and measures in the U.S. and someone thinks it's better to give patient doses in metric form????? And are surprised when problems ensue????? Please check the information you present for reasonableness.


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

Here's the link again to the article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ritarubin/2 ... ecd7139643


I'm going to ask that you not misrepresent the study. Oppose metric all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. The parents who used metric-only measuring tools performed better than the parents who used both metric and customary. This is a fact, not open to debate. It does NOT support your point.

So this test is done in the U.S. where everyone uses something other than the metric system. But you don't even mention any possibilities of confusion when testing is done in metrics?????

And some people are required to use metrics only. But the study doesn't say if any of the participants have been tested for any familiarity with the metric system (which I concede is easier to teach).

And some people use metrics coupled with our customary system. THIS is the reason I say the participants were "set up to fail." On it's face it's ludicrous.

And, by the way, it exactly proves my point as it directly points to the confusion, harm, and possibly deaths by trying to "inject" the metric system into an unwilling populace. Thank you for pointing this out.


Obviously, unfamiliarity with metric units wasn't that much of a problem, because the parents who worked in metric-only had fewer errors than those who used dual units.

As I've said before, if you no longer wish to discuss the topic, you may refrain from visiting the thread.


"Obviously, unfamiliarity with metric units wasn't that much of a problem, because the parents who worked in metric-only had fewer errors than those who used dual units."

And where are the results that showed accuracy when parents used only the customary system??? Perhaps not included in the public results purposely??? And why would that be I wonder??? This sounds more like a publicity piece than a true scientific study.

:D "As I've said before, if you no longer wish to discuss the topic, you may refrain from visiting the thread." :D

I'd suggest, if you are unable to debate well, then perhaps you should examine your premise. You must be able to understand other people have approaches you do not. At least have a little common courtesy if you are not able to keep up with the conversation (and answer points as they are presented...which you have not).

"Discuss the subject" does not mean you get to continually redefine your "subject" in an attempt to gain an argumentative advantage. If you are unable to debate then why not just concede your point??? Or perhaps ask for more information??? If you're unable to discuss the points I've raised about the subject then it seems you're the one who doesn't want to discuss the subject...at hand.



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09 Oct 2016, 11:27 am

Well, obviously, I'm the only knowledgeable American supporter of metric on this forum. If there are any others, they have not shown themselves. This back and forth is getting tiring; I can win against passion, but I cannot win against apathy. Any other metric supporters who did not join in, congratulations on sitting back while this thread went to hell.

As a final appeal, I wish to speak to people of color. It appears that people of color may be more negatively affected by our failure to metricate than white people, and this discrepancy might be why we have not metricated (emphasis added):

Quote:
Stated plainly, measurement is “the domain of least relative competence for U.S. students” (Barrett 2012). This finding is supported at the district, county, and state levels. In the U.S., weights and measures are generally learned in the study of spatial measurement (Smith 2012). Extensive evidence has shown, and continues to show, that U.S. students’ grasp of spatial measurement—length, area, and volume—is poor, despite the wealth of spatial experience and knowledge they develop and use outside of school. This evidence includes analyses from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) of performance by 4th, 8th, and 12th graders (e.g., Blume, Galindo, & Walcott, 2007); cross-national comparisons such as TIMSS (National Center of Education Statistics, 1997); and smaller research studies that have focused on students’ patterns of reasoning, e.g., studies indicating that students often confuse area and perimeter (Chappell & Thompson, 1999; Woodward & Byrd, 1983). Where the NAEP results show low performance in the entire U.S. population, performance is weakest for low-income and minority students, who lag further behind white students in measurement than in any other content area (Lubienski & Crockett, 2007).


http://www.teammetric.org/measurement/

I encourage people of color to discover their voice on this subject, to discuss their experiences of our failure to metricate.

I have asked the forum staff to close this thread. No further productive discussion is possible under the current conditions.


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09 Oct 2016, 12:14 pm

That's too bad.

What you've seem to have missed is we ALL believe in the metric system and it's superiority.

What you DON'T get, however, is that we don't think this is the right time for it...and unfortunately you just can't seem to "click" to the reasons we're rejecting it at this time.



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09 Oct 2016, 12:34 pm

ZenDen wrote:
That's too bad.

What you've seem to have missed is we ALL believe in the metric system and it's superiority.

What you DON'T get, however, is that we don't think this is the right time for it...and unfortunately you just can't seem to "click" to the reasons we're rejecting it at this time.


I'm an American too and have every bit the same right to speak on this issue as you do. Quit using "we" as if I'm not included.

Anyway, as usual, the forum staff is slow to act.


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09 Oct 2016, 12:42 pm

Maybe this'll get them to hurry up:

ZenDen, I am concerned for your reading comprehension. It took several pages of back and forth for you to realize that in the study the parents that used metric-only did better than those who used dual units. For some reason, you kept getting it backwards. Maybe you need to get that checked out. I know that you're afraid, that if we discard customary units and go for metric, and then you pass away, then it will be as though you never existed, as to you your legacy can only be left through customary units. And I know the fears of Americans, that if we discard customary in favor of metric, it would be as though we don't even exist anymore, we won't be special anymore.

But I want to let you guys know, the world is passing us by. They are beginning to see the dysfunction in this country more and more, factories are closing up their doors and leaving. Companies don't want to work with people that are unfamiliar with the metric system, that don't "get" it, so they pack up their doors and leave. And yet, what do you guys do? Try to elect someone like Donald Trump to get back at the world for doing so, so you can in bitterness rationalize all you've done, including not metricating, instead of doing what you need to do to fix the problem. White supremacy continues to erode as the old system dies, but what will replace it?


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09 Oct 2016, 12:48 pm

The world dumbs things down for us Americans. The Olympic sports are all measured in metric, but they were converted to customary for the U.S. market. Our cars are 100% metric, but you couldn't know that from just looking at them. This is because the world believes that Americans are too stupid to grasp the metric system, because after all we would have adopted it already, right? So they have to hold our little hands and give it to us in customary, otherwise like an overgrown baby we will make a mess of things and maybe even send someone to the hospital.


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09 Oct 2016, 2:08 pm

beneficii wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
That's too bad.

What you've seem to have missed is we ALL believe in the metric system and it's superiority.

What you DON'T get, however, is that we don't think this is the right time for it...and unfortunately you just can't seem to "click" to the reasons we're rejecting it at this time.


I'm an American too and have every bit the same right to speak on this issue as you do. Quit using "we" as if I'm not included.

Anyway, as usual, the forum staff is slow to act.


"I'm an American too and have every bit the same right to speak on this issue as you do. Quit using "we" as if I'm not included."

Sorry to have to say this beneficii, but it's obvious YOU'RE the one who separates him/her self by being unable to join with others in understanding on this subject. You have an absolute right to think as you will, however this right does not extend to vilifying others when they don't agree with you.