Conservatism is my salvation from 'Neurotypical oppression'

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naturalplastic
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18 Apr 2017, 6:16 pm

DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Like many of you, I have lived my life under constant neurotypical oppression.

My oppressors told me, "You don't go out enough", "You spend too much time on your computer", "You don't socialize enough", "You shouldn't do that", "You shouldn't act that way", "You should say 'hi' to people in the morning", "You shouldn't dress that way, "Don't do that", "You're not doing it right", "You should make friends" .....

Even worse, my oppressors abused and humiliated me, because I didn't do things in their perceived "correct way".

The message was clear: I am wrong.

Then along comes conservatism.

Conservatives say things like, "You don't need a government master to tell you how to live your life".

Wow! What a powerful message to an oppressed person.

So, that's why I despise lefties, government control, socialism, and why I'm enamored with conservatism. :D


Me too!


But your "oppressors" are NT private citizens,and not any "government".

Also your NT "oppressors" were all also "individuals" practicing "individualism" (independently and individualistically deciding to "oppress" you).



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18 Apr 2017, 6:25 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well very inspiring to cut resources from them...resources that can help them become more productive. People are more productive when they have their basic needs met actually. Not having basic needs met just makes people desperate not particularly 'productive'.

Conservatives promote cutting welfare to able-bodied people.

They also like to make sure the money is not going for booze, and drugs.


Well people aren't so able bodied if they are starving...aslso they didn't just cut it for 'able bodied people'. I talked to someoene to get hooked up with an employment specialist at the mental health center for my area. And she told me they made cuts to SSI/Disability and that is part of the reason tons of people have mentioned to them they've got a reduction in payment recently, perhaps that has something to do with them reducing my payments so much that if I wasn't living with my boyfriend who has been able to help me some I would be trying to live on 23 dollars a month after rent and utilities that's not even enough to cover my phone and tampons for for each month, let alone any other hygiene items. How the hell is that supposed to help?

I started working at age 28, and then I was fired from about 5-7 jobs.

I kept at it. At age 37 I was better functioning, and I have held work since.

I would say to keep trying to find work.


I'd have to say I have been working with vocational rehabilitation for the past couple months to do that.

And I still don't see what I am supposed to see as appealing about conservatism, if it was up to them there there wouldn't be publicly funded programs like vocational rehabilitation to help out...or the SSI and Medicaid which has helped me have income and access to healthcare to improve my health so that I've been able to look into working.

What did you do till age 28?


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Sweetleaf
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18 Apr 2017, 6:31 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
The right wingers, generally promote "individualism" where you make your own choices. I like "individualism".


Unless it comes to things like marijuana use, gay marriage, abortion ect...pre-employment drug testing is not an example of letting you make your own choices. I mean if right wingers are really about making your own choices then live and let live...don't want an abortion don't have one, don't want to puff a joint, don't ...don't want gay marriage don't have one. Instead they want government policies to enforce these kinds of lifestyle choices.


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18 Apr 2017, 6:53 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If the poor cannot afford healthcare, then they don't have a choice.

Right.

Yet, at least they're free from coercion, which is what this topic is about.

Are they free from coercion?

For example, in your anarchist utopia, someone who cannot afford healthcare is coerced into a job that may be unsafe and very low paid in order to pay for life-saving surgery for their child.

In a modern social democratic government, someone who cannot afford healthcare... wait, they can afford healthcare. And if they get a job, they're guaranteed a minimum wage, and a safe work environment, and sociable working hours, and paid leave.

Absolutist ethics are internally consistent and easy to understand, and that's a clear advantage of them, but there comes a point where their inflexibility leaves them at odds with basic morality. A view of freedom which only considers a simplistic interpretation of government coercion is incompatible with truly maximising freedom. As an extreme example, what about murder? Isn't a government law against murder coercing people not to kill? What an egregious restriction on my freedom!

I appreciate that often the best thing a government can do is mind its own business, but there are times when it needs to stand up and protect the little guy.



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18 Apr 2017, 7:05 pm

DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean where is the hiring agency to pick up homeless and impoverished people off the streets and get them a sustainable job they can keep? And working with them on hygiene and basic resources till they can actually start making their own income and improving their situation.

Conservatives want to make people productive but not lift a finger to do it? Instead just hope if they cut things far enough desperation will become productiveness?


And liberals want to help people but want someone else (the taxpayers) to pay for it.


You do realize tons of the liberals are taxpayers right? Meaning they're saying the tax money they pay should go to it as well...yes in effect they want their own tax-dollars going to publicly funded programs and infrastructure. Perhaps liberals would rather taxes go to things like that, than Trump and his wife taking seperate expensive flights on the taxpayers dime because they're in a conflict or whatever personal drama they are having...and cutting tons of things just to vastly increase military spending.

I'd be more angry about tax cuts for the very wealthy and things like unreasonably high taxation...not that some tax money goes to programs to help the poor.


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LoveNotHate
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18 Apr 2017, 7:45 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Like many of you, I have lived my life under constant neurotypical oppression.

My oppressors told me, "You don't go out enough", "You spend too much time on your computer", "You don't socialize enough", "You shouldn't do that", "You shouldn't act that way", "You should say 'hi' to people in the morning", "You shouldn't dress that way, "Don't do that", "You're not doing it right", "You should make friends" .....

Even worse, my oppressors abused and humiliated me, because I didn't do things in their perceived "correct way".

The message was clear: I am wrong.

Then along comes conservatism.

Conservatives say things like, "You don't need a government master to tell you how to live your life".

Wow! What a powerful message to an oppressed person.

So, that's why I despise lefties, government control, socialism, and why I'm enamored with conservatism. :D


Me too!


But your "oppressors" are NT private citizens,and not any "government".

Also your NT "oppressors" were all also "individuals" practicing "individualism" (independently and individualistically deciding to "oppress" you).

-Government forced us to go the government schools.
-Obamacare mandate requires us to prove we have health insurance or pay the penalty.
-My state raised the state tax.
-The gas tax was just raised.
-The car registration tax was just raised.
-My city got a "special assessment" for lights, so property taxes are going up.
-The county just past a regional county tax to give more to the schools.
-At my bank, I get scrutinized on my transactions, because the US government has the banks snoop on us (so today I got called by a manager there).
-Many industries I spent money on, for example, the telephone or gas add fees that go towards government regulatory bodies. (here is FCC regulatory fees ... https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databases ... atory-fees )

We are losing freedoms everywhere.



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18 Apr 2017, 8:01 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Like many of you, I have lived my life under constant neurotypical oppression.

My oppressors told me, "You don't go out enough", "You spend too much time on your computer", "You don't socialize enough", "You shouldn't do that", "You shouldn't act that way", "You should say 'hi' to people in the morning", "You shouldn't dress that way, "Don't do that", "You're not doing it right", "You should make friends" .....

Even worse, my oppressors abused and humiliated me, because I didn't do things in their perceived "correct way".

The message was clear: I am wrong.

Then along comes conservatism.

Conservatives say things like, "You don't need a government master to tell you how to live your life".

Wow! What a powerful message to an oppressed person.

So, that's why I despise lefties, government control, socialism, and why I'm enamored with conservatism. :D


Me too!


But your "oppressors" are NT private citizens,and not any "government".

Also your NT "oppressors" were all also "individuals" practicing "individualism" (independently and individualistically deciding to "oppress" you).

-Government forced us to go the government schools.
-Obamacare mandate requires us to prove we have health insurance or pay the penalty.
-My state raised the state tax.
-The gas tax was just raised.
-The car registration tax was just raised.
-My city got a "special assessment" for lights, so property taxes are going up.
-The county just past a regional county tax to give more to the schools.
-At my bank, I get scrutinized on my transactions, because the US government has the banks snoop on us (so today I got called by a manager there).
-Many industries I spent money on, for example, the telephone or gas add fees that go towards government regulatory bodies. (here is FCC regulatory fees ... https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databases ... atory-fees )

We are losing freedoms everywhere.


No, those taxes don't take your freedom; they ensure that you have upkept roads to drive on, fire and police protection, and every other service you depend on.
There are public schools because it was deemed necessary to have an educated populace in order to have a strong country. Prior to public education, American children either had to belong to particular church denominations that would provide education, or they would have to pay for private education - that last being beyond most Americans' means even today.


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LoveNotHate
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19 Apr 2017, 4:51 am

The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If the poor cannot afford healthcare, then they don't have a choice.

Right.

Yet, at least they're free from coercion, which is what this topic is about.

Are they free from coercion?

For example, in your anarchist utopia, someone who cannot afford healthcare is coerced into a job that may be unsafe and very low paid in order to pay for life-saving surgery for their child.

In a modern social democratic government, someone who cannot afford healthcare... wait, they can afford healthcare. And if they get a job, they're guaranteed a minimum wage, and a safe work environment, and sociable working hours, and paid leave.

Absolutist ethics are internally consistent and easy to understand, and that's a clear advantage of them, but there comes a point where their inflexibility leaves them at odds with basic morality. A view of freedom which only considers a simplistic interpretation of government coercion is incompatible with truly maximising freedom. As an extreme example, what about murder? Isn't a government law against murder coercing people not to kill? What an egregious restriction on my freedom!

I appreciate that often the best thing a government can do is mind its own business, but there are times when it needs to stand up and protect the little guy.

In the simplest case, of one person on the Earth, the person has a choice: survive, or lay down and die.

You appear to be arguing that the choice of survival is coerced behavior.

Say, having to do the job of hunting for food to survive is coerced.

Well, maybe it is, if we think of "the survival instinct" (deterministic factors) within the human as coercing the human to survive.

However, this topic is directed towards oppression (coercion) from others -- what ASD people experience their whole lives.



Kraichgauer
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19 Apr 2017, 11:03 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If the poor cannot afford healthcare, then they don't have a choice.

Right.

Yet, at least they're free from coercion, which is what this topic is about.

Are they free from coercion?

For example, in your anarchist utopia, someone who cannot afford healthcare is coerced into a job that may be unsafe and very low paid in order to pay for life-saving surgery for their child.

In a modern social democratic government, someone who cannot afford healthcare... wait, they can afford healthcare. And if they get a job, they're guaranteed a minimum wage, and a safe work environment, and sociable working hours, and paid leave.

Absolutist ethics are internally consistent and easy to understand, and that's a clear advantage of them, but there comes a point where their inflexibility leaves them at odds with basic morality. A view of freedom which only considers a simplistic interpretation of government coercion is incompatible with truly maximising freedom. As an extreme example, what about murder? Isn't a government law against murder coercing people not to kill? What an egregious restriction on my freedom!

I appreciate that often the best thing a government can do is mind its own business, but there are times when it needs to stand up and protect the little guy.

In the simplest case, of one person on the Earth, the person has a choice: survive, or lay down and die.

You appear to be arguing that the choice of survival is coerced behavior.

Say, having to do the job of hunting for food to survive is coerced.

Well, maybe it is, if we think of "the survival instinct" (deterministic factors) within the human as coercing the human to survive.

However, this topic is directed towards oppression (coercion) from others -- what ASD people experience their
whole lives.


That so called coercion provides rights and aid to people with disabilities, including Asperger's.


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21 Apr 2017, 1:45 am

Disclaimer: I take neither side, I just seek to understand them for myself.
Personally I feel like Conservatism and Liberalism actually mean and meant different things, but the definitions of these words have become cultural identities. Someone who shares a range of ideas which are more conservative is also pro capitalism and pro economy, which never made sense to me because that was what more liberal people have strived for hundreds of years. On the other end, someone who is more liberal desires environmental protection and a stronger government, but throughout history when a conservative party takes control over govts (this excludes the US obviously) they've strived for stronger govts which can control a population more effectively. Isn't death penalty a policy that would be administered by the government? What about less economic restrictions that were originally placed by a monarch or high officials in states of the early modern era?

So essentially, it's all a confusing mess. The more I study political philosophy the more confused I get. I understand conservatism and liberalism in their current definition, as well as the terms Republican and Democrat, but I feel like you'd only see this sort of thing in the US. Historically and even today, conservatism and liberalism around the world stand for vastly different things.

Two examples of words which have had their meanings changed in what I feel is the same way. The first one is Gay. It use to mean light hearted and carefree, and now it is used as (oftentimes vulgar) a designation for someone who is homosexual. Or another example, the Middle east, which use to represent south Asia and more accurately India, as it was in the middle of the east in proportion to the main European powers. When the US and the USSR came they revised the term middle east so it now means a collection of countries perceived to be hostile to western democracies (which indeed some of them are but that's something else entirely), when in reality many of them have nothing to do with each other, and its an almost entirely artificial region. People even think there's a middle eastern race, when someone from Egypt may be very close to someone from Palestine or even Israel and yet are sometimes considered part of a different race by some of the more ignorant among us. These words change and I feel that the same sort of thing has happened to our political process.

Sorry for such a long post. I was just confused so I posted this to try and clear it up for myself and I just want to know if anyone knows how to actually comprehend the political system. It's one of those things that gets bigger the more you research.



naturalplastic
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21 Apr 2017, 4:54 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Like many of you, I have lived my life under constant neurotypical oppression.

My oppressors told me, "You don't go out enough", "You spend too much time on your computer", "You don't socialize enough", "You shouldn't do that", "You shouldn't act that way", "You should say 'hi' to people in the morning", "You shouldn't dress that way, "Don't do that", "You're not doing it right", "You should make friends" .....

Even worse, my oppressors abused and humiliated me, because I didn't do things in their perceived "correct way".

The message was clear: I am wrong.

Then along comes conservatism.

Conservatives say things like, "You don't need a government master to tell you how to live your life".

Wow! What a powerful message to an oppressed person.

So, that's why I despise lefties, government control, socialism, and why I'm enamored with conservatism. :D


Me too!


But your "oppressors" are NT private citizens,and not any "government".

Also your NT "oppressors" were all also "individuals" practicing "individualism" (independently and individualistically deciding to "oppress" you).

-Government forced us to go the government schools.
-Obamacare mandate requires us to prove we have health insurance or pay the penalty.
-My state raised the state tax.
-The gas tax was just raised.
-The car registration tax was just raised.
-My city got a "special assessment" for lights, so property taxes are going up.
-The county just past a regional county tax to give more to the schools.
-At my bank, I get scrutinized on my transactions, because the US government has the banks snoop on us (so today I got called by a manager there).
-Many industries I spent money on, for example, the telephone or gas add fees that go towards government regulatory bodies. (here is FCC regulatory fees ... https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databases ... atory-fees )

We are losing freedoms everywhere.


I dont see what any of that has to do with "loosing" any freedom that you ever had ( would you rather be ignorant than have gone to a public school? Is ignorance "freedom"?).

But lets say that that some of those things are examples of you "loosing freedom". None of them are examples of you loosing freedom as an autistic person.

If the government repealed all of that stuff you listed you would still be every bit as "oppressed" by your neurotypical peers as before.

So what does hating big government have to do with freeing you from "NT oppression"?



LoveNotHate
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21 Apr 2017, 6:40 am

naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
DinoMongoosePenguin wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Like many of you, I have lived my life under constant neurotypical oppression.

My oppressors told me, "You don't go out enough", "You spend too much time on your computer", "You don't socialize enough", "You shouldn't do that", "You shouldn't act that way", "You should say 'hi' to people in the morning", "You shouldn't dress that way, "Don't do that", "You're not doing it right", "You should make friends" .....

Even worse, my oppressors abused and humiliated me, because I didn't do things in their perceived "correct way".

The message was clear: I am wrong.

Then along comes conservatism.

Conservatives say things like, "You don't need a government master to tell you how to live your life".

Wow! What a powerful message to an oppressed person.

So, that's why I despise lefties, government control, socialism, and why I'm enamored with conservatism. :D


Me too!


But your "oppressors" are NT private citizens,and not any "government".

Also your NT "oppressors" were all also "individuals" practicing "individualism" (independently and individualistically deciding to "oppress" you).

-Government forced us to go the government schools.
-Obamacare mandate requires us to prove we have health insurance or pay the penalty.
-My state raised the state tax.
-The gas tax was just raised.
-The car registration tax was just raised.
-My city got a "special assessment" for lights, so property taxes are going up.
-The county just past a regional county tax to give more to the schools.
-At my bank, I get scrutinized on my transactions, because the US government has the banks snoop on us (so today I got called by a manager there).
-Many industries I spent money on, for example, the telephone or gas add fees that go towards government regulatory bodies. (here is FCC regulatory fees ... https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databases ... atory-fees )

We are losing freedoms everywhere.


I dont see what any of that has to do with "loosing" any freedom that you ever had ( would you rather be ignorant than have gone to a public school? Is ignorance "freedom"?).

Coercion:the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

For example, when the public schools mandate you have to attend -- that is 'coercion'.

That is a loss in freedom when instead you could self-learn, or go to an ASD school, and learn so much more.

This is particularly brutal to ASD kids.
1) The bright fluorescent lights sub-75 HZ refresh rate forcing me to keep my head down.
2) The humiliation by kids and teachers.
3) The un-ASD teaching methods -- of not teaching subjects from a detailed approach
4) The ABA (Behavior correction) for "wrong behavior".

I think public schools are generally a waste of time for most.

It's forced torture for ASD kids.

naturalplastic wrote:
So what does hating big government have to do with freeing you from "NT oppression"?

That was never my point.

My point was that since we endured so much "NT oppression"

That personally, I greatly dislike it from other sources.



LoveNotHate
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21 Apr 2017, 6:54 am

wrongcitizen wrote:
Disclaimer: I take neither side, I just seek to understand them for myself.
Personally I feel like Conservatism and Liberalism actually mean and meant different things, but the definitions of these words have become cultural identities. Someone who shares a range of ideas which are more conservative is also pro capitalism and pro economy, which never made sense to me because that was what more liberal people have strived for hundreds of years. On the other end, someone who is more liberal desires environmental protection and a stronger government, but throughout history when a conservative party takes control over govts (this excludes the US obviously) they've strived for stronger govts which can control a population more effectively. Isn't death penalty a policy that would be administered by the government? What about less economic restrictions that were originally placed by a monarch or high officials in states of the early modern era?

So essentially, it's all a confusing mess. The more I study political philosophy the more confused I get. I understand conservatism and liberalism in their current definition, as well as the terms Republican and Democrat, but I feel like you'd only see this sort of thing in the US. Historically and even today, conservatism and liberalism around the world stand for vastly different things.

Two examples of words which have had their meanings changed in what I feel is the same way. The first one is Gay. It use to mean light hearted and carefree, and now it is used as (oftentimes vulgar) a designation for someone who is homosexual. Or another example, the Middle east, which use to represent south Asia and more accurately India, as it was in the middle of the east in proportion to the main European powers. When the US and the USSR came they revised the term middle east so it now means a collection of countries perceived to be hostile to western democracies (which indeed some of them are but that's something else entirely), when in reality many of them have nothing to do with each other, and its an almost entirely artificial region. People even think there's a middle eastern race, when someone from Egypt may be very close to someone from Palestine or even Israel and yet are sometimes considered part of a different race by some of the more ignorant among us. These words change and I feel that the same sort of thing has happened to our political process.

Sorry for such a long post. I was just confused so I posted this to try and clear it up for myself and I just want to know if anyone knows how to actually comprehend the political system. It's one of those things that gets bigger the more you research.

A broad view might divide people into "left", and "right".

Left = supports "collectivism" where the group's needs takes priority over an individual's needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

Right = supports "individualism" where each individual's needs take priority over a group's needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism



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21 Apr 2017, 1:35 pm

I always was appealed more to conservatism, but more leaning to the libertarian side on issues like privacy or big-government bureaucracy. This is what I think American people threw out the window a long time ago and forgot. I embrace a limited scope and size of government, but I am not against all government. I just want control of things like healthcare and education more in the hands of the people and local governments, not a bloated Washington-D.C. bureaucratic government. The problem is that Trump was our only hope left against liberalism in 2016, problematic as that may be, but he succeeded anyway.



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21 Apr 2017, 1:53 pm

:mrgreen:

K_Kelly wrote:
I always was appealed more to conservatism, but more leaning to the libertarian side on issues like privacy or big-government bureaucracy. This is what I think American people threw out the window a long time ago and forgot. I embrace a limited scope and size of government, but I am not against all government. I just want control of things like healthcare and education more in the hands of the people and local governments, not a bloated Washington-D.C. bureaucratic government. The problem is that Trump was our only hope left against liberalism in 2016, problematic as that may be, but he succeeded anyway.


You do realize Trump is a large part of the reason you're fearing global nuclear conflict right? Lol Trump is the one who poked North Korea...He was never the last hope for anything.


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21 Apr 2017, 9:29 pm

Why,yes. I do realize that mistake.