Are people too self-righteous for refusing covid vaccines?

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ironpony
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31 Dec 2020, 7:04 pm

Well when you get a vaccine, will you have to show a card that says you got one, and that the people who do not get one, will have to live under more restrictions? Will it work like that likely?



ezbzbfcg2
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31 Dec 2020, 7:11 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well when you get a vaccine, will you have to show a card that says you got one, and that the people who do not get one, will have to live under more restrictions? Will it work like that likely?


If that's the case, then going for a walk down the street or going to a park will become problematic. And yes, showing papers is very political.



ironpony
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31 Dec 2020, 7:25 pm

Why does it have to be a political thing though? Why can't we just take safety precautions without seeing it through a lens of politics?



ezbzbfcg2
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31 Dec 2020, 7:27 pm

ironpony wrote:
Why does it have to be a political thing though? Why can't we just take safety precautions without seeing it through a lens of politics?


The irony of sorts is that we're actually asking the exact same question.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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31 Dec 2020, 7:40 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well when you get a vaccine, will you have to show a card that says you got one, and that the people who do not get one, will have to live under more restrictions? Will it work like that likely?


Let's see what might be out there right now for the country where I live.

Quote:
Employers can require proof that employees have received a COVID-19 vaccine — with some exceptions, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) said in Dec. 16 guidance.

https://www.hrdive.com/news/breaking-em ... -e/592322/

From back in May;
Quote:
Many governments are looking for paths out of restrictive physical distancing measures imposed to control the spread of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With a potential vaccine against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) many months away,1 one proposal that some governments have suggested, including Chile, Germany, Italy, the UK, and the USA,2 is the use of immunity passports—ie, digital or physical documents that certify an individual has been infected and is purportedly immune to SARS-CoV-2. Individuals in possession of an immunity passport could be exempt from physical restrictions and could return to work, school, and daily life. However, immunity passports pose considerable scientific, practical, equitable, and legal challenges.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7198144/

Also;
Quote:
Los Angeles County partnered with health startup Healthvana to roll out a new digital offering that allows residents to store records of their COVID-19 vaccination in Apple Wallet or on a similar Google platform, according to a Dec. 28 Press Herald report.
The offering aims to ensure people receive both doses of the COVID-19 vaccine by sending out follow-up notifications before a second appointment. The digital record will also give recipients a way to verify they have been vaccinated.
Los Angeles County is home to about 10 million residents; as of Dec. 22, the county had administered at least 38,850 doses of the Pfizer vaccine to healthcare providers, long-term care facility residents and paramedics. While immunizations are tracked in registries, public health officials saw the need to give patients ownership of their own records as the paper card tracking their vaccine details could be easily lost, said Claire Jarashow, vaccine preventable disease control director at L.A.'s public health department, according to the report.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/d ... -apps.html

Quote:
The airline is currently working with other carriers and the industry as to what form this ‘COVID vaccination passport’ would take, such as a digital travel pass app.
“The Government is working through how vaccines will be registered technically and how a digital passport and digital requirements will be managed, but we have a humber of months before detail needs tot be finalised.”
Also read: Airline 'travel pass' app will show COVID test results, vaccination
Australia’s National Vaccination Policy has also suggested that visitors to Australia may be required to show proof of COVID-19 vaccination, although Joyce said that “it will become a binary choice for international travellers to either get the vaccine or quarantine for two weeks. And quarantine places are very limited.”

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... as-flights

Quote:
"Indeed, many airlines are currently testing technology to streamline the health documentation process, including mobile health apps like CommonPass, ICC AOKpass and VeriFLY to ensure travelers can present their health data in a secure, verifiable way.

It’s not known yet whether some kind of universal health form or certificate will be required to travel because that would require participation from various countries and organizations, but that’s happened before. The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, known to many as the carte jaune or yellow card, was originally created in the mid 1930s by the World Health Organization. Versions were used as proof for vaccination against diseases including yellow fever, typhus and smallpox, and many countries still require proof of certain vaccinations when traveling. For those travelers who have relocated to foreign countries over the years, the possibility of sharing personal health information isn’t unusual, as many visa and residency applications call for medical exams.

...
Quote:
A common request from people across the industry is for governments to work together to standardize testing and vaccination requirements. For example, travelers who are vaccinated in the United States should know that their vaccination and documentation is valid in Thailand and vice versa.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/trav ... ccine.html


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ironpony
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31 Dec 2020, 7:42 pm

Oh okay. Well I guess it may have to turn political then if people want to think of it that way. But will that happen though, or where you cannot be allowed to into places or certain job, until you flash a card that says you have been vaccinated?



kitesandtrainsandcats
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31 Dec 2020, 7:45 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well when you get a vaccine, will you have to show a card that says you got one, and that the people who do not get one, will have to live under more restrictions? Will it work like that likely?


Quote:
Ethical arguments: are immunity passports ethical?
There are several key ethical advantages to immunity passports. First, the justification behind requiring people to remain in lockdown is the risk their free movement poses to themselves and others as they could acquire and pass on the virus. Individuals who are immune to SARS-CoV-2 are expected to be at a vastly reduced risk of getting and transmitting the virus, and so removing their civil liberties would be unjustified. It is unethical to require someone to avoid contact with others if they pose no or minimal risk of spreading the virus.

Second, people will know the reduced risks, and are likely to become less compliant with lockdown restrictions if they believe themselves to be immune anyway.40
Consider Neil Ferguson, who resigned from his role as an adviser to the UK Government after breaking lockdown guidelines, stating “I acted in the belief that I was immune”.41
By refusing to formalise the permissibility of such actions, inevitable low-risk behaviour is classified as rule breaking, and could even subject people to fines and punishments that do not correspond to the harm their behaviour causes.

Finally, there will be benefits for immune individuals and broader benefits to society from allowing people to return to work and care obligations. Lonely and isolated individuals could be visited by immune friends and relatives; small businesses can be reopened by staff who are immune and will not risk the health of colleagues and customers; immune health-care staff can care for patients with COVID-19; and immune care workers can protect vulnerable people in residential homes.


Source:
The Lancet Infectious Diseases
The scientific and ethical feasibility of immunity passports

Rebecca C H Brown, PhD
Dominic Kelly, PhD
Prof Dominic Wilkinson, DPhil
Prof Julian Savulescu, PhD

Published:October 16, 2020

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 73-3099(20)30766-0/fulltext


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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31 Dec 2020, 7:47 pm

Quote:
Mixed messaging

"Immunity passports" were a concept floated early on in the pandemic to allow people who were presumed to be immune to COVID-19 to freely circulate in society. With the advent of a vaccine, the idea has further evolved to encompass immunity through proof of vaccination.

However, the official messaging about the validity of these so-called "digital health passports" - or "vaccine passports" as they are becoming known - is at present a little confusing. The World Health Organization (WHO) itself appears at odds with its own recommendations.

At a WHO press briefing in Copenhagen on December 4, Dr Catherine Smallwood, Senior Emergency Officer at WHO Europe, reaffirmed the body's current guidance on "immunity passports".

"We do not recommend immunity passports nor do we recommend testing as a means to prevent transmission across borders," she said. "What we do recommend is that countries look at the data on transmission both within their countries and beyond their borders and adjust their travel guidance to people accordingly".
John Minchillo/Associated Press

The WHO, paradoxically, signed an agreement with Estonia in October to collaborate on the development of a digital vaccination certificate - or a "smart yellow card" in a nod to yellow fever vaccine paper certificates of old. The idea behind it is to strengthen the case for vaccines, ensure equitable access to them and ultimately end pandemic restrictions through active acquired immunity.


https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/11/do- ... asks-the-e


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ezbzbfcg2
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31 Dec 2020, 7:50 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well I guess it may have to turn political then if people want to think of it that way. But will that happen though, or where you cannot be allowed to into places or certain job, until you flash a card that says you have been vaccinated?


I guess companies may take different approaches with hiring, but the government mandating papers seems extreme to me. We'll know roughly how many people are vaccinated and at what rate as the months go on. If the goal is to minimize the spread of the virus and the overcrowding of hospitals, then at some point we'll know that X amount of people have received the vax. Y amount are still waiting or haven't taken it yet, but we've reached a point where the virus isn't a major threat. That's the ideal scientific approach, regardless of a piece of paper. We can safely reopen, even if large amounts of people still haven't yet been vaccinated. But we probably won't do that--

Papers and everyone getting forcefully vaxed is the political approach, which you yourself advocated for when you started this thread.



kraftiekortie
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01 Jan 2021, 7:17 am

I believe in a pure scientific approach.

What does one think is the motivation for lockdowns?

I doubt that any government (at least in a capitalist society) desires, say, that restaurants close, that department stores close, that sports events don’t have fans. The interest of the capitalist society is in keeping business open.

The primary aim of the lockdowns (or semi-lockdowns) is to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed to the point where they can’t take in people who don’t have COVID. Then....there is the choice doctors might have to make in COVID-laden hospitals: who lives....and who dies.



ezbzbfcg2
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01 Jan 2021, 3:32 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe in a pure scientific approach.

What does one think is the motivation for lockdowns?

I doubt that any government (at least in a capitalist society) desires, say, that restaurants close, that department stores close, that sports events don’t have fans. The interest of the capitalist society is in keeping business open.

The primary aim of the lockdowns (or semi-lockdowns) is to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed to the point where they can’t take in people who don’t have COVID. Then....there is the choice doctors might have to make in COVID-laden hospitals: who lives....and who dies.


Ask yourself, why are movie theaters closed in the 5 boroughs but open in Nassau? Are the Nassau authorities being reckless, or is De Blasio out of control? Either way, someone's approach isn't correct. Either the Nassau authorities are mass murderers, or De Blasio is putting a bunch of theater owners in the red.

COVID has low infection rates in schools. Yet, some schools are opened, others are quasi-open (half the kids half the week). Others are closed entirely...which means lots of kids who could theoretically be out-and-about and putting themselves in higher risk. Which, if any of these, is the correct approach?

Capitalism has done quite well. Amazon (a major corporation) is reporting RECORD earnings for 2020. True, Amazon was doing quite well before. But now they're the only practical game in town. A decent portion of that money they made in 2020 would otherwise have gone to smaller businesses. So Capitalism is still alive, just on the grand scale and at the expense of small business.

If anything, the lock-downs are an example of state's rights (and local rights) gone nuts. For the first time in our history, a federal official (Dr. Fauci) is essentially giving state and local authorities carte blanch to be tyrants, and they're clearly happy to oblige him to varying degrees.

Hence, I don't trust these officials to open things up in a scientific manner. There's been no rhyme or reason thus far. And I think scapegoating those who don't want the vaccine is a way for people to deflect a greater crisis.

It's like you're saying, "We must appease the authorities. Everyone get vaccinated and hopefully they'll allow us to be free again." None of their actions say 'scientific/rational public safety concerns' to me.



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02 Jan 2021, 4:37 am

Why are the vaccines we're being given a mixture & it's only being revealed in the American press & on social media & apparently it's dangerous to have a mix of them or untested at least...

That worries me.


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ironpony
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02 Jan 2021, 3:24 pm

Well I think that covid is so serious now, that isn't it more dangerous than taking a vaccine that was rushed?

Isn't that like being on the titanic while it is sinking, and refusing to get on a lifeboat because you feel there is a chance it may not be up to code? Just stop fussing and get on the lifeboat?