Why Do people Promote the idea that Science is a religion?

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Ragtime
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08 May 2008, 2:39 pm

sojournertruth wrote:

To say that it's not allowed in schools, though, is as specious as saying that prayer isn't allowed in schools. Individual students can pray all they want, but they can't disrupt class and they can't force the other students to pray along with them (by peer pressure, teacher-led prayer, or any other mechanism).

Uh, no, there have been many news stories of American children chastized for
carrying their Bibles at school, for praying in school alone and on their own time,
and for wearing Christian clothing or jewelry -- while the other kids are allowed
to wear whatever pagan messages and symbols they want.
It is a complete double-standard.

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Sedaka
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08 May 2008, 2:44 pm

i abhor public school system irregardless of religious/evolutionary restrictions.

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slowmutant
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08 May 2008, 4:12 pm

Sedaka, how long have you been teaching? When were you certified to teach?

26 = actual age?

slowmutant
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08 May 2008, 4:14 pm

Quote:

Uh, no, there have been many news stories of American children chastized for carrying their Bibles at school, for praying in school alone and on their own time,
and for wearing Christian clothing or jewelry -- while the other kids are allowed to wear whatever pagan messages and symbols they want. It is a complete double-standard.

I second that, Ragtime. No Christian iconography allowed and yet but wall to wall Slipknot, Megadeth, Marlyin Manson. Our culture is way too strict in some ways and far too lenient in others. Issues like this really bring out my Inner Archie Bunker.

Sedaka
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08 May 2008, 4:54 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Sedaka, how long have you been teaching? When were you certified to teach?

26 = actual age?

it was more like a TA appointment for my masters work. I had a NSF grant to teach science in public schools in a rural part of our country. I taught in elementary school for 2 yrs. It was a grant to help educate both kids and teachers to improve school curriculum... there's a whole field of such grants: GK-12 (meaning for teaching in grades kindergarten-12th) I also taught college bio lab courses for a more standard TA appointment for another 2 yrs.... that's when i started getting "odd" commentary on my social behaviors on all my teaching evals.... and then after stressing out about that for several terms... accidentally came across an AS article and was like OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! then i switched research fields from marine bio/development/genomics & evo -----> neuroscience

yep, 26 & still in school. no more classroom teaching, though i do teach molecular labratory procedurees to students comin through.

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Ragtime
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08 May 2008, 5:08 pm

Sedaka wrote:

i abhor public school system irregardless of religious/evolutionary restrictions.

We are in complete agreement on this.
It's in a sorry, sorry state isn't it?

Sedaka
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08 May 2008, 5:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

i abhor public school system irregardless of religious/evolutionary restrictions.

We are in complete agreement on this.
It's in a sorry, sorry state isn't it?

think i'm gonna try and home school.... or at least get a gig workin in a lab on a campus somewhere so i can bring my kids to work with me and shove them off to random classes so they can sit in on cool stuff and what not in between doin all their homeschool assignments. i also figure that way, that if there's somethin i don't know really well.... being on a campus, there's bound to be SOMEONE i can email or send my kids to office hours to bug

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LKL
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08 May 2008, 7:19 pm

Ragtime wrote:

So, not a single phrase that "isn't science" can be uttered in a science classroom.

*snort*

as if it were 'a single phrase.' If all a teacher said was, 'some people philosophically believe that life is too complex to have evolved unaided,' no one would bat an eye. You're being disingenuous; you know as well as I do, the people trying to get ID into schools have considerably more of an agenda than that.

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Wait, wait, wait... don't we have free speech?

Public school teachers do not have the right to indoctrinate their captive audience with their own religious views, no. They can say what they want on their own time, but they cannot present it as science to their students.

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If the teacher makes clear that his view toward ID is outside of the curriculum,
and is merely answering one of students' most fervently-wondered questions --
"Does my teacher believe in ID?" -- then what is wrong with the teacher answering
his student's directly-asked question, and saying,
"Off the record, yes, I do happen to believe in ID"?
Answer: Nothing is wrong with that. This is America. People are Constitutionally
entitled to their beliefs, both on and off of American campuses.

that's true. And if that's as far as it ever went, no one would have a problem with it.

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And they are also Consitutionally entitled to talk about their beliefs,
both on and off of American campuses.

yes they are, but they are not constitutionally entitled to teach their personal beliefs as fact.

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Don't like it? Go to another country.

right back atcha.

sojournertruth
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08 May 2008, 9:07 pm

Ragtime wrote:

sojournertruth wrote:

and some of those cases have rightly been taken up by the ACLU.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfundin ... 60824.html

To say, however, that pagans or atheists get a free pass is disingenuous at best:
http://nalrant.wordpress.com/2007/03/22 ... at-school/

http://www.holysmoke.org/wicca/roanoak.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26 ... ref=slogin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3eN0LeJcaU
(watch the whole thing). And here's an article that goes into more detail:
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/257839.htm

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a ... s&id=12533
http://www.holysmoke.org/wicca/lothlor. ... itcher.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~wjager/billrel.html
http://ecstathy.blogspot.com/2007/12/pe ... ation.html

jfrmeister
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08 May 2008, 9:16 pm

Ragtime wrote:

So, not a single phrase that "isn't science" can be uttered in a science classroom.
Wait, wait, wait... don't we have free speech?

This isn't a matter of free speech. There's this pesky little thing in the first amendment called the establishment clause.

"The government shall respect no establishment of religion" Teaching the bible as fact, promotes christianity over other religions.

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Fuzzy
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08 May 2008, 9:52 pm

Ragtime wrote:

And they are also Consitutionally entitled to talk about their beliefs,
both on and off of American campuses.

Consider this: Lets say you have a pastor named Pastor Smith. One sunday he says to the congregation that this week hes going to talk about the latest parties that Paris Hilton and Lynsey Lohan have been at, and he sets the bible aside. Its certainly his consitutional right, but those people went to church to learn about god. I'd suspect after 1/2 hour a lot would get up and walk out. Pastor Smith might even get fired over it.

So it is with science. If someone signs up for a biology course, they want to spend their time learning biology, and to hell with the constitutional rights of the speaker. That speaker has a social contract to stick to the topic, and possibly a financial one as well.

In the case of teenage students its a little different, because until they are 16 years or older, they are legally bound to be in that classroom. The teacher has a financial contract to the school to teach the lesson plan that the school deems appropriate(they have a social contract to the parents or adult students).

Anything else would be tantamount to press ganging people into a church. You cannot round people up and force them to church. Nor can you drag church into a different venue(the school), because its the same effect. Especially with students with no legal escape from that.

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08 May 2008, 10:12 pm

there's also the little problem that the teacher at a public school is a representative of the government, and if something is taught in a public school then the government is effectively endorsing it.

Sedaka
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08 May 2008, 10:23 pm

i still think (for older kids) you should be able to have somewhat of an intellectual debate about it... but i can see for reasons already stated, why college is more appropriate for such a thing.

we had a big project on such a topic in some of the labs i taught... and there were a few projects of students from the religious side of the argument that had a very mature standpoint and took the project very seriously.

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Odin
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08 May 2008, 10:37 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Prove it, and Fox News, Drudge, and Fundy organizations moaning about how they are being "oppressed" don't count as sources.

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08 May 2008, 10:39 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Slipknot, Megadeth, and Marilyn Manson are rock artists, not religious figures. :roll:

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slowmutant
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09 May 2008, 8:24 am

Yes, they are musicians and not religious figures. I was aware of that. But the values they represent are definitely anti-establishment, antoi-government and anti-Christian.

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