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skafather84
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03 Sep 2009, 6:50 pm

Carrots are better than sticks

Want cooperation? Rewarding the helpful can be more effective than punishing wrongdoers, a new experiment in game theory suggests.

In the public goods game, players choose whether or not to contribute money to a common pot. The pot is multiplied and redistributed equally, regardless of who contributes and who doesn't. When people play a pure version of the game, the temptation to freeload – reap the rewards without contributing anything – often leads to rapidly disintegrating cooperation.

Previous research found that cooperation is promoted by allowing players to punish freeloaders: cooperative players would pay a small cost that enables them to inflict a loss on the offender. This approach was more effective than reward, at least in games where players switch partners every round.


More carrot, less stick
David Rand and his colleagues at Harvard University modified the public goods game to reflect what they argue is a more natural scenario: people play with the same group for many rounds, establishing reputations with each other.

Players could choose to reward or punish others at a small cost to themselves. Rand found that rewarding or punishing were equally likely to lead to cooperation and higher earnings, but when players had the option to either punish or reward, but chose to reward, they received higher absolute payoffs. "It becomes in one's self-interest to help the group," says Rand.

"It's sort of a 'you scratch the group's back and I'll scratch yours'," he says.

Money for nothing
Sam Bowles at the Santa Fe Institute, New Mexico, cautions that Rand's game does not accurately reflect real economies. He points out, for example, that under Rand's rules the rewarder pays $4 and the rewardee "magically" receives $12. He calls this an unnatural scenario. "If you take away the free lunch, it doesn't work," says Bowles.

Rand points out that such disproportionate rewards often occur when we spend time, effort and money assisting people around us: helping a friend to move furniture, for instance, or recommending a colleague for promotion. Actions like these may have a smaller cost to us than the benefit they provide others. "These sorts of productive interactions are the building blocks of our society and should not be disregarded," he says.

Journal reference: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5945/1272


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... ticks.html


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ruveyn
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03 Sep 2009, 8:15 pm

That is only common sense. If you can get someone to do what you want them to do willingly it beats threatening or flogging them.

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zer0netgain
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04 Sep 2009, 8:19 am

A strange issue.

A fundamental rule of political science is that the way to get a group of people to embrace something is to get them to internally accept the value it is based upon.

Frequently, this utilizes propaganda.

Indoctrinate the masses on the value of hard work and sacrifice and they will do so willingly because they internally believe that value.

Otherwise, you have to use the threat of force to make it happen, and even then, most will do only the absolute minimum required of them.

This is a dangerous duality.

Raise a the young with good values that reinforce independence and liberty, and you get good results and a free population.

Raise the young to believe that tight government control and regulation is a good thing, and you get a society that is a police state full of mindless drones afraid to think for themselves.

Different outcomes, same tactic.



b9
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04 Sep 2009, 8:49 am

sticks are better than carrots if you have harnessed a team of termites.



ThatRedHairedGrrl
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04 Sep 2009, 8:50 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Raise a the young with good values that reinforce independence and liberty, and you get good results and a free population.

Raise the young to believe that tight government control and regulation is a good thing, and you get a society that is a police state full of mindless drones afraid to think for themselves.


X and Y management styles. Type X bosses believe their employees are inherently untrustworthy, inefficient, workshy, have to be pushed and disciplined into getting the job done, and require micromanagement. Type Y bosses believe their employees basically want to do a good job and can be trusted to get on with it with the minimum of supervision. Both types of boss, unsurprisingly, tend to get what they expect from their employees.

I would guess that the same applies to other forms of superior-subordinate relationships, including parenting, religion, and government.


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Sand
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04 Sep 2009, 10:07 am

zer0netgain wrote:
A strange issue.

A fundamental rule of political science is that the way to get a group of people to embrace something is to get them to internally accept the value it is based upon.

Frequently, this utilizes propaganda.

Indoctrinate the masses on the value of hard work and sacrifice and they will do so willingly because they internally believe that value.

Otherwise, you have to use the threat of force to make it happen, and even then, most will do only the absolute minimum required of them.

This is a dangerous duality.

Raise a the young with good values that reinforce independence and liberty, and you get good results and a free population.

Raise the young to believe that tight government control and regulation is a good thing, and you get a society that is a police state full of mindless drones afraid to think for themselves.

Different outcomes, same tactic.


There are still people in the USA who are convinced that Sadam Hussein was behind 9/11. The US education system is turning out an army of illiterates. You are talking theoretical nonsense.



zer0netgain
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04 Sep 2009, 1:38 pm

Sand wrote:
There are still people in the USA who are convinced that Sadam Hussein was behind 9/11. The US education system is turning out an army of illiterates. You are talking theoretical nonsense.


No. I am not.

The rule is solid. If you get a population to embrace an idea within their heart, you don't have to force them to follow it as a "law." They do it willingly because they've been convinced to believe in it.

If you have to compel obedience by threat of force, you get a much less effective result.



Sand
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04 Sep 2009, 2:12 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Sand wrote:
There are still people in the USA who are convinced that Sadam Hussein was behind 9/11. The US education system is turning out an army of illiterates. You are talking theoretical nonsense.


No. I am not.

The rule is solid. If you get a population to embrace an idea within their heart, you don't have to force them to follow it as a "law." They do it willingly because they've been convinced to believe in it.

If you have to compel obedience by threat of force, you get a much less effective result.


I'm not talking about force, I'm talking about misinformation. You can scam people to do anything.



Henriksson
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04 Sep 2009, 4:04 pm

Beat them with the carrot. :P


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pakled
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05 Sep 2009, 4:05 pm

well, carrots are certainly more nutritious...;)

but sometimes, you have to start by getting the mule's attention...;)



codarac
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13 Sep 2009, 3:25 pm

skafather84 wrote:
"It becomes in one's self-interest to help the group," says Rand.

"It's sort of a 'you scratch the group's back and I'll scratch yours'," he says.


There are other game theory experiments they could try.

What happens when you have several different 'groups' in one place? What would be the long-term result for one group (call it group X) whose members practice universal altruism in a 'game' where the members of all the other groups practice in-group altruism? What would happen to group X if every time a group X member tried to explain to their fellow group-members how the world works they get punished with accusations of 'groupism'?

What if there are different types of pay-offs, and the rules of the game are such that group X members are encouraged to seek short-term gain (which might correspond in the real world to money, status and/or the mental well-being that comes with conformity) at the expense of the long-term future of the group.



skafather84
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13 Sep 2009, 3:44 pm

codarac wrote:
What happens when you have several different 'groups' in one place?



Say what you mean.


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NeantHumain
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13 Sep 2009, 8:29 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:
X and Y management styles. Type X bosses believe their employees are inherently untrustworthy, inefficient, workshy, have to be pushed and disciplined into getting the job done, and require micromanagement. Type Y bosses believe their employees basically want to do a good job and can be trusted to get on with it with the minimum of supervision. Both types of boss, unsurprisingly, tend to get what they expect from their employees.

I would guess that the same applies to other forms of superior-subordinate relationships, including parenting, religion, and government.

I don't think this is true. A domineering management style would be repellent to most, and maybe they'll garner superficial compliance for a time, but their subordinates would stab them in the back hard at the first possible moment. Some may like the direction provided by an authoritarian style, and these would be the only to stick around without becoming openly contemptuous and rebellious. On the other hand, a more transparent, open management style would be unappealing to the dull and less self-directed.



Tim_Tex
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19 Sep 2009, 4:39 pm

I think some people learn better with carrots. Unfortunately, stick work better with the majority.


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