To kill

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22 Sep 2009, 5:03 pm

I thought of a question that to me seemed as though many may be stumped by it, and others may see it as an inspiration to think. It's a simple question, and I would like you to decide what it is asking on your own. Here we go:

Is it a (biblical) sin for a living being to kill another living being?

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ruveyn
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22 Sep 2009, 5:40 pm

jamesp420 wrote:

No. It is kosher to kill to defend one's life or to kill to defend the life of another person.

The commandment given in Exodus and Deuteronomy is :Thou shalt not slaughter (i.e. wrongfully kill). Loh tertzakhah.

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Sand
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22 Sep 2009, 11:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:

jamesp420 wrote:

And almost every nation that set out to conquer its neighbors fabricated a fiction of being attacked. From The Spanish-American war through the Nazi invasion of Poland to the Gulf of Tonkin to the 9/11 excuse for the attack on Iraq it has always been a matter of "self defense".

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22 Sep 2009, 11:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:

jamesp420 wrote:

Yes. Killing is not the same as "laying in wait" to murder, and capital punishment is not murder.

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23 Sep 2009, 6:37 am

Sand wrote:

Or maybe the truth. In the 1967 war, the Israelis received good intelligence that they were about to be attacked so they attacked first. As it says in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 72 A): If he is coming to kill you, rise up early and slay him first.

While self-defense is often used as a pretext, it is also the case sometimes.

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23 Sep 2009, 6:56 am

jamesp420 wrote:

Is it a (biblical) sin for a living being to kill another living being?

Are you kidding? Half the Bible is about God telling his chosen people to kill someone or other.

As for the laws in the Bible look at all the things that you can be stoned to death for.

I like the one that says "If your son is a useless drunk or layabout then tell the elders and they will stone him to death"

There is another classic that says something like "If a man is fighting another man and his wife joins the fight and grabs the other man by his private parts then she will have her hand cut off"

I think "Thou shalt not kill" would be better translated as "Thou shalt do no murder".

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23 Sep 2009, 9:55 am

Quote:

Is it a (biblical) sin for a living being to kill another living being?

Most people would say that there are circumstances in which it is justifiable to kill other human beings. More pacifistic Christians will reduce those circumstances to be fewer, or claim that no circumstances have justification. Frankly though, determining where those circumstances are is a difficult question, but I think most people believe that killing can be justified.

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23 Sep 2009, 9:57 am

Wombat wrote:

I think "Thou shalt not kill" would be better translated as "Thou shalt do no murder".

That would be redundant, though, as murder is by definition an unlawful killing. What sort of killing is "unlawful" is a far more interesting question.

I find the moral worth of the bible to be very small indeed.

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23 Sep 2009, 7:22 pm

Henriksson wrote:

What sort of killing is "unlawful" is a far more interesting question.

Any that is an act of one's own will for personal gain or satisfaction.

Society can kill a murderer for the protection or overall well-being of society, but the individual who is then joyful (as in "thrilled to see him die") is a murderer in his own heart.

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23 Sep 2009, 8:57 pm

Henriksson wrote:

I find the moral worth of the bible to be very small indeed.

That is because you have read it separated from the underlying Oral Tradition. Taken as a printed text and read literally, scripture is not only NOT a guide to how the world is physically, but rather an off putting book. Taken in the cultural context in which is was produced and the Oral Tradition which modified and softened its rather jagged edges it is a much better book to read. You have to understand it in context.

The is why Jews spend years, sometimes decades learning not only the written Scripture but the Oral Tradition than modifies it. I myself spent some years studying Torah and Talmud. While I am no longer observant, I have at least learned to understand what is being put forth. Jews have managed to transform a rather blood thirsty religion (biblical Judaism is not one bit less blood thirsty than Islam), into a workable ethical doctrine. The proof of the doctrine is that it has helped Jews to survive in a world that was determined to kill them off. But here we are, still alive and functioning.

Religious works and artifacts are not rational. Religion does not produce a rational philosophy. People who expect rationality from a religious doctrine are bound to be disappointed and put out.

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23 Sep 2009, 9:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

I find the moral worth of the bible to be very small indeed.

Jews, therefore, are superior to all people and you, being a Jew and with a monumental IQ are superior to everybody. I can see your logic there.

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23 Sep 2009, 10:28 pm

Sand wrote:

Jews, therefore, are superior to all people and you, being a Jew and with a monumental IQ are superior to everybody. I can see your logic there.

Ruveyn has displayed no such logic or thinking, and I believe you owe an apology!

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23 Sep 2009, 10:58 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Sand wrote:

Jews, therefore, are superior to all people and you, being a Jew and with a monumental IQ are superior to everybody. I can see your logic there.

Ruveyn has displayed no such logic or thinking, and I believe you owe an apology!

Right. Ruveyn did not claim in several threads that he has an IQ of about 140 and therefore is smarter than 95% of all other humans and did not claim that Jews are a special people who have moral and intellectual traditions superior to all other cultures and therefor have garnered prizes for their accomplishments out of their intellectual traditions and therefor I offer a full apology.

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23 Sep 2009, 11:14 pm

Sand wrote:

Right. Ruveyn did not claim ...

Being very new here, I do not know about anyone's claims, alleged or real, and I surely do not mean to be argumentative.

Some folks find value is Scripture and some do not ... and that is pretty much the end of that, eh?! But either way, the people mentioned in it do have experience with it, and I happen to find that invaluable.

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23 Sep 2009, 11:18 pm

leejosepho wrote:

Sand wrote:

Right. Ruveyn did not claim ...

What you seem to be saying is that Biblical scripture has the same force and value as, for instance, scientific observation and conception, and I cannot deny you the right to have those thoughts. But I can disagree as vigorously as is politely possible.

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24 Sep 2009, 2:02 am

Simply saying, killing should only be committed when it's a matter of survival.

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