Page 1 of 1 [ 12 posts ] 


What do you think of Ronald Reagan's contribution?
I'm American, and I think that Ronald Reagan was the big hero 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
I'm American, and I don't think that Ronald Reagan was such a big hero 52%  52%  [ 14 ]
I'm not American, and I think that Ronald Reagan was the big hero 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not American, and I don't think that Ronald Reagan was such a big hero 26%  26%  [ 7 ]
Who in blazes was Ronald Reagan? 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 27

pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

09 Nov 2009, 10:48 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/world ... ?th&emc=th

Quote:

The Legacy of 1989 Is Still Up for Debate
Published: November 8, 2009
PARIS — The historical legacy of 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell and the cold war thawed, is as political as the upheavals of that decisive year.

The fall of the Berlin Wall on Nov. 9, 1989 signaled the beginning of the end of communism in Europe.
The events of 1989 spurred a striking transformation of Europe, which is now whole and free, and a reunified Germany, milestones that are being observed with celebrations all over the continent, including a French-German extravaganza Monday evening on the Place de la Concorde.

But 1989 also created new divisions and fierce nationalisms that hobble the European Union today, between East and West, France and Germany, Europe and Russia.

Some of the intensity of those divisions is evident in the tug of war, in both Europe and the United States, over the achievements of 1989 — whether they owe more to the resolute anti-Communism of Ronald Reagan or its inverse, the white-glove embrace of the East by many in Western Europe.

And while many in the West saw the wheel of history spinning inevitably, causing the rise of democracy and banishing serious rivals to American power, China forestalled its own revolution in 1989 and catapulted itself to prominence through an authoritarian capitalism that the leaders of Russia are now studying.

“The Chinese ended up with a Leninist capitalism, which none of us imagined in 1989, and which is now the main ideological competitor to Western liberal democracy,” said Timothy Garton Ash, a chronicler of 1989 in his book “The Magic Lantern.”

It is a tribute to 1989, not unlike the French Revolution 200 years before it, that its meaning is hotly contested. Different groups in different countries see the anniversary differently, usually from their own ideological points of view.

In general, said James M. Goldgeier of George Washington University, a historian of the period, “the big question out there for 20 years is who gets the credit.”

For many in the United States, he said, most of the credit now goes to President Ronald Reagan and his aggressive military spending and antagonism toward Communism. That view has largely eclipsed another American perspective, which was that globalization and democratization were so powerful that a Mikhail Gorbachev was inevitable, and that the cold war ended through “soft power” — propaganda, diplomacy and the Helsinki accords.

“As the partisan divide over Reagan has dissipated, I think over time most Americans, if they think back at all, say it was Reagan who said, ‘Tear down this wall,’ and down it came,” Professor Goldgeier said.

Robert Kagan, a historian with the Carnegie Endowment in Washington and an editor of The Weekly Standard, said conservatives won the debate. “The standard narrative is Reagan,” he said.

This is not the case in Europe, Mr. Kagan said. “If 90 percent of Americans say it was the U.S. being firm, 99 percent of Europeans think it was they being soft — that the wall fell through Ostpolitik and West German TV.”

For many Americans of both political parties, 1989 seemed a wonderful example of the embrace of universal values that happened to be theirs, and some believed it was only a matter of time before all dictatorships crumbled before the same forces of strength, openness, economic liberalism and people power.

Democrats argue that President George W. Bush learned the wrong lesson from 1989, about the utility of force, and Republicans argue that President Bill Clinton and President Obama learned the wrong lesson — that “engagement” with totalitarian power, whether in China or Iran, will weaken or destroy it.

For all the disagreements, however, said Ronald D. Asmus, a deputy assistant secretary of state for Europe in the Clinton administration and Brussels director of the German Marshall Fund, what happened was simply amazing.

“If someone asked me in ’89 if we would have all these countries in NATO and the European Union, I would have been incredulous,” Mr. Asmus said. “We’ve lost sight of an incredible historical achievement — the heart of Central and Eastern Europe is at peace. All problems are not fully solved, but they are tempered, controlled and contained, and we have a better chance of solving them.”

Even the brief war last year between Georgia and Russia would have been very different without NATO, Mr. Asmus argued. “These are not existential issues anymore,” he said. “They’re not presidential problems, but assistant secretary of state problems.”

Russia remains a challenge for both the United States and Europe, but a much safer one, argues Sergei Karaganov, who leads the Council for Foreign and Defense Policy in Moscow and was an adviser to the Russian presidents Boris N. Yeltsin and Vladimir V. Putin.

In Russia, Mr. Gorbachev, the last Soviet president, is widely despised for indecisiveness and for permitting the collapse of the empire, an event that Mr. Putin called the greatest geostrategic catastrophe of the last century.

Not all Russians agree, but many do argue that the end of the Warsaw Pact should have led to the disbanding of NATO, or at least a decision not to expand the alliance to include states that were once part of the Soviet Union.

“The U.S. regarded itself as the victor in the cold war, but Russia does not regard itself as the loser,” Mr. Karaganov said. “At the very least we expected an honorable peace. Like Britain, we have never been defeated, and we remain ready to fight.”

“Hindsight is seductive, but there were a number of alternative futures from 1989,” said Mary Elise Sarotte, who has just published “1989: The Struggle to Create Post-Cold War Europe.” “The West chose a future that perpetuated a divided Europe and left Russia on the periphery.”

One result of 1989 was the end of a bipolar world, but after a brief 20-year reign the period of American unipolarity is also ending, many Europeans say.

For Hubert Védrine, a former French foreign minister who worked then for President François Mitterrand, 1989 led to a Western arrogance that is only slowly deflating with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and against Islamic radicalism.
“People mix the fall of the wall with the fall of Jericho in the Bible, as in, ‘We’ve won; history is over,’ etc.,” he said. “But to me it’s the beginning, it’s the prologue of an opera with a cymbal crash, the prologue of 15 to 20 years of Western arrogance.”

A scramble for power and influence among several nations and blocs of nations — Europe, China, Russia, India, Brazil and the United States — now seems likely. Dominique Moïsi of the French Institute for International Relations said, “America is in relative decline, but has not yet accepted the changes, speaking of multilateralism but not accepting the consequences.” In this transitional world, he said, “nothing can be done without America, but nothing can be done by America alone.”

But Americans are not likely to agree with this interpretation. Robert D. Blackwill, a longtime diplomat and adviser to Presidents George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush, argues for the necessity of American leadership. “I see no evidence that America is in decline,” he said.

In Central Europe itself, there are serious divisions over 1989, symbolized by the long and bitter rivalry in the Czech Republic between Vaclav Havel and Vaclav Klaus, between a softer collective polity, anchored by Europe, and a fierce individualist liberalism reluctant to give up sovereignty to the European Union that was so recently regained from the Soviet collapse.

In the eyes of many in the old West, the events of 1989 enlarged but also diluted the European Union. The union has struggled ever since over how to deepen and solidify the alliance. “There is a kind of melancholia toward Europe for part of the French, because in this whole, one has to negotiate with everyone,” Mr. Védrine said.

For Mr. Garton Ash, the divide remains between Western and Eastern Europe. “We hoped as Europeans that 1989 would be a second founding moment for the European project, and that this would become a pan-European memory and a shared cause for celebration,” he said. “But that hasn’t happened. ‘Eastern Europe’ still exists in the collective memory and we haven’t purged it.”

Many people in the East, of course, suffered from 1989 and the sudden, even brutal switch to capitalism. “They feel the transition was very tough on them and feel cheated and even betrayed, and are open to conspiracy theories about shady deals done at the round tables,” Mr. Garton Ash said.

“It’s not like the way in Britain we remember V-E Day,” when Nazi Germany surrendered, he said. “It’s really quite divided.”



LeMesurier
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 26

09 Nov 2009, 12:42 pm

Legacy of89?
Unemployment in the former DDR, all voting for the NPD.
Gorbachev considered to be a traitor in the USSR.
Huge poverty in eastern Europe.

But the US wanted it, and thus it happened.



xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

09 Nov 2009, 8:18 pm

The middle class under an accelerated and relentless assault. The middle class owes its existence to Lenin and so goes Leninism, so goes the middle class.



sartresue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 71
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism

10 Nov 2009, 9:54 am

Remembering 1989 topic

What the heck did Reagan have to do with the wall? He erected barriers with his laissez unfair economics. Thatcher and Mulroney were two others who typified these turbulent times.

Tragic legacy. :evil:


_________________
Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind

Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory

NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo


pakled
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,015

10 Nov 2009, 11:33 am

wha? The middle class is the petite bourgeoisie, or in the sticks, known as kulaks. Lenin lines all he could find up against a wall and shot them, then Stalin finished the job...

Reagan was the straw that broke the camel's back...the Second world (now you know why the 3rd world is the 3rd world...;) was teetering long before then...


_________________
anahl nathrak, uth vas bethude, doth yel dyenvey...


xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

10 Nov 2009, 12:53 pm

Not all the middle class is the petty bourgeoisie. Many are what was the working class. The fear of the Soviet Union and the power of socialist and communist unions forced the ruling class to enact economic policies that allowed the middle class to thrive. When the USSR ended, the "there is no alternative" mantra was repeated endlessly and any attempts to prevent the rollback were successfully denounced as discredited socialism and communism and the Fall of the Berlin Wall proves that they are wrong and There is No Alternative.

The middle class is owed to Lenin because without his revolution and USSR in the background, the ruling class would never have allowed the middle class' creation. With the USSR gone, now the ruling class is rolling back and shutting down that middle class.



pezar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,432

10 Nov 2009, 8:59 pm

xenon13 wrote:
Not all the middle class is the petty bourgeoisie. Many are what was the working class. The fear of the Soviet Union and the power of socialist and communist unions forced the ruling class to enact economic policies that allowed the middle class to thrive. When the USSR ended, the "there is no alternative" mantra was repeated endlessly and any attempts to prevent the rollback were successfully denounced as discredited socialism and communism and the Fall of the Berlin Wall proves that they are wrong and There is No Alternative.

The middle class is owed to Lenin because without his revolution and USSR in the background, the ruling class would never have allowed the middle class' creation. With the USSR gone, now the ruling class is rolling back and shutting down that middle class.


Eventually the ruling class will wind down the big cities too, and force their inhabitants to either die or return to the land as serfs. The reinstating of feudal agrarian society, with an "optimal" population level of 400-500 million, has long been a goal of the elite. I don't see why they couldn't have cut the Renaissance off at the pass 500 years ago and shut down capitalism, I guess they figured they could profit, but it's gone too far. They will shut down the middle class, and the next step is to inflate all currencies into worthlessness, then they will simply yank welfare out from under us, causing massive riots and starvation along with bioengineered plagues. The people who survive that will then be culled to weed out people who would make poor serfs and slaves. The rest will then be given 40 acres on the lord's estate. By then the population will be down to around 400 million globally. That will be the state of humanity forever. There are no new lands to discover, no new gold deposits to find, and they know it. The discovery of America and Australia really blindsided the elites. They didn't expect the impact to be as great as it was. The massive amounts of gold found in the New World alone caused a renaissance. Those deposits are all mined now.



codarac
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 780
Location: UK

11 Nov 2009, 6:19 pm

I don't think future historians will consider the year 1989 as massively significant.
Most Europeans are living under a dictatorship now - it's called the EU.

Btw, the former head of German intelligence, Gerd-Helmut Komossa has just written a book claiming that West Germany/ Germany was (and is) pretty much a puppet state of the USA.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGjkQAa9I34[/youtube]



pezar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,432

11 Nov 2009, 7:58 pm

codarac wrote:
I don't think future historians will consider the year 1989 as massively significant.
Most Europeans are living under a dictatorship now - it's called the EU.

Btw, the former head of German intelligence, Gerd-Helmut Komossa has just written a book claiming that West Germany/ Germany was (and is) pretty much a puppet state of the USA.


Duh. After WW2, it was the policy of both the USSR and the USA to "neuter" Germany so that it would not have the capability to start a third war. Initially, the policy on both sides was zero rebuilding of the industrial base and only limited rebuilding of infrastructure and residential/commercial buildings. Basically the Allies wanted Germany to be a weak, third world nation forever. The splitting of the country, and the transfer of much of the eastern part to Soviet ruled Poland, was preplanned at Yalta for this purpose.

At the very beginning any building that could be somewhat rehabilitated for use was, and cheap wooden shacks erected for any other needs. After a couple years the Americans allowed a partial reconstruction of the West German industrial base as part of the Cold War strategy of communist containment, since without German industrial knowhow Western Europe would not recover, and if it didn't there was considerable fear of nation after nation falling to communism. Fear of a resurgent Europe finally had to take a back seat to fear of communism on the march.

The Soviets followed through on their neutering policy, and the industrial base of their part of Germany was dismantled, and cheap concrete buildings erected after the realization that existing structures were too few and too unstable to be salvaged. East Germany was made into a garrison state that existed solely as the front line of the Iron Curtain. Its needs were supplied by Moscow. There was also an extensive reeducation program of the German people undertaken by both the Americans and the Soviets to eliminate the German taste for aggression and war.

As memories of the war receded and the youth were schooled in pacifism, West Germany was allowed an increasingly longer leash, and West German consumer goods were allowed to be sold outside the country. Two popular West German exports in the 1960s were cars (Volkswagen Beetle, Mercedes) and consumer electronics, especially radios like Nordmende and Telefunken, which commanded premium prices in the US because of superior quality and deliberately enforced scarcity. It was common for US servicemen serving in West Germany to bring back electronics to the US because of this.

By 1985 the status quo was unsustainable, especially since East Germans could see firsthand the superior quality of the lives of their Western brethren under capitalism. My belief is that the Soviets were going to allow a provisional reunification under a joint powers authority of Germany, and loosen the leash of the most troublesome satellites, especially Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviet empire unraveled too quickly, however, and all that ended up under American control. The splitting of Czechoslovakia was unanticipated as well, as was the ferocity of the internecine conflict in Yugoslavia, to the point that the Americans had to settle it. Russia ended up as a rump state dependent on oil sales.

The wiki entries on Germany and Berlin provide interesting reading on this. I stumbled across the entry for Potsdamer Platz, which before the war was the most important crossroads in Europe yet after was dismantled and abandoned, which shows how existing buildings were reused and talks about the cheap wood sheds.



LeMesurier
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 26

12 Nov 2009, 9:59 am

'The German taste for aggression and war'...
Yes, the US is a very peaceful nation!
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan...

Germany only wanted Europe, the US want world control.



donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

17 Dec 2009, 9:48 am

idk personally i think it was all staged.



WorldsEdge
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 458
Location: Massachusetts

17 Dec 2009, 1:10 pm

This article is based on a ridiculous premise: namely that the end of the Cold War is somehow more important than what occurred during the 40 years OF the Cold War. To liken the whole business to a boxing match, yes, the US "knocked out" the USSR, but in the process of doing so turned itself into a punch drunk mess staggering around the ring. Both countries spent billions on "defense" while at the same time sopping up the smartest minds into their respective defense "industries." It is kind of like saying the assassination of Franz Josef is really what started World War I.

And what has been the result?

Well, when was the last time you saw an American made television, any sort of audio equipment actually built in America, or even the majority of the components of computers which are theoretically American brands (Dell, Compaq) in them? And how did the largest creditor nation in the world become the biggest debtor nation in world history, in less than 50 years? One that literally has to go hat in hand to China to beg them to buy our debt, as Obama did in one of his first acts as president.

The big "winner" of the Cold War was China, followed by Japan and probably India, though I guess the jury's still out there.

Besides if there's any "hero" here, it would have to be George Kennan, the "Mr. X" who wrote the Foreign Policy article that became US/NATO policy as "Containment."


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell