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iamnotaparakeet
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14 Jun 2010, 6:49 am

As much as the derogatory term "imperialism" is thrown about regarding America and Israel, do either America or Israel have imperialistic plans with regard to the world? Is Israel actually trying to conquer the people on Gaza strip, and if so, why aren't they being more efficient about it? If America wanted to form an empire, wouldn't it be easier to conquer the geographically adjacent nations first, and also allow for better logistics of plunder-transport? Seriously, if either America or Israel wanted to conquer the world, we could easily do a better job. As it is, the usage of the term "imperialism" is pretty much an hollow insult.



skafather84
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14 Jun 2010, 9:46 am

Image


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iamnotaparakeet
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14 Jun 2010, 10:03 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEyCjN9riiY[/youtube]



Master_Pedant
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14 Jun 2010, 3:35 pm

Once again we see that Fundamentalism not only corrupts reason, it corrupts morality.

The "imperialism" of Western Nations (well, at least the United States) has been written about to great length, if only you carred to look (given your ruveyesque distain for people facing much greater hardships than anything we can imagine, I doubt you have). The "imperialism" isn't direct (totally martial) nor is it stupid (i.e. attacking well-established and cooperative junior partners). It is, first and foremost, an economic imperialism of a very strategic nature (attack or install proxy governments in nations that are poor, developing, and underarmed). Decades of studies with regard to Latin America and America's support for Middle East dictators buttress this concept.

As for Israel's, it's not an empire in its own right so much as a proxy state for that acts (in many cases) in the interests of the American plutocracy. The Israeli system is more apartheid government than an imperial power.



Master_Pedant
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14 Jun 2010, 3:43 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEyCjN9riiY[/youtube]


A war morale boasting speech is hardly the most relevant statement Eisenhower gave on America's foreign policy. His farewell address is far more pertinent.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY[/youtube]



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14 Jun 2010, 3:51 pm

I would still tend to say that talk about "imperialism" for these issues generally tends to just come from ideologically-driven social scientists on the far-left, as while it is undeniable that the US has engaged other nations in a terrible manner on multiple occasions, even to promote its own economic benefit, the problem is with these ideas is that most poorer nations are not strong trade partners with the US, nations that do engage in a lot of trade usually are nations that experience significant growth such as seen with a number of countries, and many of the nations that flounder it can be seen engaged in terrible policy decisions on multiple levels. This is not to say that there are no flukes, this is not to say that the suffering of these people reflects some sort of justice, only to recognize that a very large problem with most developing nations comes with corruption and terrible policies that suppress the ability of these nations to grow. I mean, it is undeniable even today, that a lot of nations out there are engaging in policies that shoot themselves in the foot, despite how Marxists love to blame "the capitalists" at every juncture.

This is not to say that keet's thinking here is correct, as the entire idea of colonialism here is to get nations that can't fight back and in this case to take this role of ruler covertly given the rejection of overt colonialism. Still, I have to consider the entire conception to be ideology at this point.



Master_Pedant
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14 Jun 2010, 4:02 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I would still tend to say that talk about "imperialism" for these issues generally tends to just come from ideologically-driven social scientists on the far-left, as while it is undeniable that the US has engaged other nations in a terrible manner on multiple occasions, even to promote its own economic benefit, the problem is with these ideas is that most poorer nations are not strong trade partners with the US, nations that do engage in a lot of trade usually are nations that experience significant growth such as seen with a number of countries, and many of the nations that flounder it can be seen engaged in terrible policy decisions on multiple levels. This is not to say that there are no flukes, this is not to say that the suffering of these people reflects some sort of justice, only to recognize that a very large problem with most developing nations comes with corruption and terrible policies that suppress the ability of these nations to grow. I mean, it is undeniable even today, that a lot of nations out there are engaging in policies that shoot themselves in the foot, despite how Marxists love to blame "the capitalists" at every juncture.

This is not to say that keet's thinking here is correct, as the entire idea of colonialism here is to get nations that can't fight back and in this case to take this role of ruler covertly given the rejection of overt colonialism. Still, I have to consider the entire conception to be ideology at this point.


And what do you say about people on the "far-right" like Ron Paul who talk of "American Empire"?

Aside, structural adjustments have caused problems to many nations and many of the "economic miracles" of neoliberalism have horribly high gini indexes.



Awesomelyglorious
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14 Jun 2010, 4:42 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
And what do you say about people on the "far-right" like Ron Paul who talk of "American Empire"?

I disagree with Paul on trade policy, and question some of the things they say. I am not denying, once again, that America has used its power towards promoting its ends, only that this is insufficient to honestly call it imperialism or empire.

What is the embarrassment supposed to be here? That I disagree with somebody who says something wrong?

Quote:
Aside, structural adjustments have caused problems to many nations and many of the "economic miracles" of neoliberalism have horribly high gini indexes.

I didn't say "economic miracles of neoliberalism", I made the much more modest claim that bad policies led to bad outcomes in a large number of cases, and that trade led to good outcomes.



Jono
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15 Jun 2010, 3:03 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Once again we see that Fundamentalism not only corrupts reason, it corrupts morality.

The "imperialism" of Western Nations (well, at least the United States) has been written about to great length, if only you carred to look (given your ruveyesque distain for people facing much greater hardships than anything we can imagine, I doubt you have). The "imperialism" isn't direct (totally martial) nor is it stupid (i.e. attacking well-established and cooperative junior partners). It is, first and foremost, an economic imperialism of a very strategic nature (attack or install proxy governments in nations that are poor, developing, and underarmed). Decades of studies with regard to Latin America and America's support for Middle East dictators buttress this concept.

As for Israel's, it's not an empire in its own right so much as a proxy state for that acts (in many cases) in the interests of the American plutocracy. The Israeli system is more apartheid government than an imperial power.


The US has never been an imperialist nation. Just all imperialist nations came from Europe. For instance, if you take Africa, where most most imperialist nations had historically set up colonies, there only former US colony I know of is Liberia. However, America only set up Liberia as a place in West Africa to free black slaves after slavery had been abolished and it became independent some tome afterward to become the first African republic. Compare that to the British who ruled a quarter of the world.



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16 Jun 2010, 6:36 am

Jono wrote:
The US has never been an imperialist nation. Just all imperialist nations came from Europe.


If America is not imperialist then why did they fight and conquer all the Indian nations outside the original 13 colonies?

Why did they invade Cuba and the Philippines? Why did they invade Mexico and take all the land from Texas to California?
Why did they annex the Kingdom of Hawaii?



ruveyn
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16 Jun 2010, 7:55 am

Wombat wrote:
Jono wrote:
The US has never been an imperialist nation. Just all imperialist nations came from Europe.


If America is not imperialist then why did they fight and conquer all the Indian nations outside the original 13 colonies?

Why did they invade Cuba and the Philippines? Why did they invade Mexico and take all the land from Texas to California?
Why did they annex the Kingdom of Hawaii?


The U.S. participation in imperialism was brief, as such things go. The Brits were at it hundreds of years. The U.S. was at it tens of years, mostly at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. When the U.S. became a superpower after WW2 it liberated most of its imperial acquisitions for example Cuba and the Phillipines. The people of Puerto Rico have voted again and again to remain part of the U.S. (but not as a State; What a honey of a deal!).

ruveyn



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16 Jun 2010, 6:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Wombat wrote:
Jono wrote:
The US has never been an imperialist nation. Just all imperialist nations came from Europe.


If America is not imperialist then why did they fight and conquer all the Indian nations outside the original 13 colonies?

Why did they invade Cuba and the Philippines? Why did they invade Mexico and take all the land from Texas to California?
Why did they annex the Kingdom of Hawaii?


The U.S. participation in imperialism was brief, as such things go. The Brits were at it hundreds of years. The U.S. was at it tens of years, mostly at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. When the U.S. became a superpower after WW2 it liberated most of its imperial acquisitions for example Cuba and the Phillipines. The people of Puerto Rico have voted again and again to remain part of the U.S. (but not as a State; What a honey of a deal!).

ruveyn


All Imperialist nations came from Europe? Will you be telling the Persians or shall I? Empire-building has never been the sole province of Europe. Nor has slavery, industrialised warfare, or dubious economic activities.

And why must everyone demonize "The Brits" for having an empire? Its not like we were the first. We just ended up with the biggest one. How about the Spanish? The Dutch? Germany? Portugal? The Spanish especially managed to grasp great chunks of land in Europe and further afield.

Also, "colonizing" areas was never as simple and straightforward a land-grab as people like to believe. There is a very good reason why the "pink" areas of the map were so haphazard and apparently random, and that's mostly because many of the places that ended up under British rule were not originally intentionally "taken". They weren't always planned or pre-meditated. They didn't always involve invasions or extensive military activity, and a great deal of the time they didn't turn a profit either. As per usual, the subject in hand is substantially more complex than people can be bothered to learn.


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16 Jun 2010, 7:34 pm

I'm sorry, but imperialism is the only way a lot of these countries will learn.

The Pakistanis need to ditch the burqa as much as African and Arabian Muslim need to ditch forced marriage.

Of course, not all imperialism is good (some countries have very fine native cultures) but some countries have customs that are patently inferior. Like forcing Muslim women to wear mobile tents on their heads.



iamnotaparakeet
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16 Jun 2010, 8:38 pm

Tequila wrote:
Like forcing Muslim women to wear mobile tents on their heads.


That's not so good, but it is rather cosmetic to their practice of female circumcision.