baptising an atheist's child?

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13 Oct 2010, 2:17 pm

i'm pretty terrible at not being rude on this topic. i'll try not to make this a discussion about the merits of theism vs atheism.

my friend considers himself to be an "apatheist" by which he says he means he doesn't have an opinion on religion and finds the question irrelevant. the thing is, he doesn't really fit his own description. his wife, another long time friend of mine, considers herself christian but doesn't go to church. the wife's cousin (a protestant) has, along with other family members, arranged a baptism at a catholic church for my friends' 18 month old daughter.

his wife says she doesn't care either way and if he doesn't want them to go through with it, he needs to be the one to tell them so. he found out about this yesterday and it's planned to take place on sunday. while he makes no secret of his stated "apatheism," he is vehemently opposed to organized religion, especially catholicism. he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

his friends have given him advice that ranges from "tell them you're worried that it'll effect her thetan level" to "just let them do it, it's a cultural thing not a religious thing."

what kind of advice would you give, given this information?

again, i don't want this to be about "religion good" or "religion bad." i just want to see some of the interesting perspectives that live in PPR.

thank you.

Asp-Z
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13 Oct 2010, 2:22 pm

I say he should discuss it with them and explain calmly why he dosen't want it done.

IMO, he should have the final decision so long as his wife continues to not mind either way, and if he still dosen't want it done after discussing it then so be it.

Guitar_Girl
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13 Oct 2010, 2:27 pm

My pastor does not believe in baptizing babies.. at all. And my mom was never religious, so she didnt want me baptized because she thinks that is hypocritical. I now chose to go to church and she does too.
Anyway, I think their daughter should be able to eventually choose whether to be religious. Im new to this and dont really understand that much.

ThatRedHairedGrrl
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13 Oct 2010, 2:40 pm

OK. I'm coming at this as someone who was raised Church of England (Protestant), was once married to a Catholic, and now identifies as pagan. So I won't be arguing the benefits of anyone's religion v. anyone else's religion (or lack of it) here.

That said...

Point 1: Never mind if it would be rude to tell his wife's family where to go on this one...it is damn rude for them to arrange to get the kid christened without his say-so. Purely on etiquette grounds. As rude as it would have been for some relative of his wife's to have booked the church for their wedding behind the couple's backs without their say-so, if you see what I mean.

Point 2: If they're Protestants, what the merry heck are they doing getting her 'done' in a Catholic church? (Hopefully not just because it's a prettier church than your local Episcopalian, but some people do think that way.)

Point 3: A Christian infant baptism involves the parents standing up in church and saying, in front of the family, yes, we believe in the Christian faith and we intend to bring this child up in it. If the priest concerned has an ounce of savvy, he'll actually be bothered if one of the parents can't honestly do this, so it might not be a bad idea to find out who he is and have a quiet word with him.

Point 4: If the wife is happy to go along with this, she may be more under her family's thumb than the husband would like to think, and he may find that other decisions about their child's upbringing get made without his consent in future. This is definitely something he wants to watch out for.

Point 5: Secular baby-naming ceremonies are available. He could, if he wants to, arrange something with your friendly local Humanist celebrant and pre-empt the would-be baptizers that way...

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skafather84
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13 Oct 2010, 2:51 pm

That's a bit presumptuous of the extended family to do that without consulting the actual family first. I'd say he should turn it down on principle alone; they should at least have the courtesy to talk to him first or, what's more sensible, to mind their own business.

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AngelRho
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13 Oct 2010, 2:52 pm

Guitar_Girl wrote:

I with you there on infant baptizing. It's not necessary, accomplishes nothing, has no Biblical precedence, etc. It's one of those "Catholic" things.

I'll tell you what our church does, though, which I think is really cool. We have a "baby dedication," which is basically the same things without all the ritual and misused ordinance. It's really simple: New parents bring their newborns in front of the church, promise to educate their children in Christian principles and be Christ-like parents, and the church promises to help in any way they can. Each parent chooses a Bible verse to be read, there's a prayer, and that's about it.

My wife was raised Methodist, so she did the whole "Christening gown" thing with our kids. But no immersion in water, not even a sprinkling.

Baptism is something that a BELIEVER chooses to do as an outward sign of obedience to Christ who commissioned His disciples to continue the practice. It's an extension of Jewish purification rites and, as done by John, showed the faithful's commitment to repent of sin. In the modern context, it symbolizes the believer's willing partaking in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. As such, it has no use or power in the life of an infant.

waltur
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13 Oct 2010, 2:53 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:

point 3 is something i hadn't even thought of. i remember being baptized as a methodist as a young child and i had to answer questions and make a declaration of my faith. a year or so later, being baptized as a baptist (because apparently those methodists don't have the right method?) i went through the exact same thing. i know catholics do it much younger but i didn't think to look much further than that.

i like the other perspectives that are coming up, as well.

and the reason discussing it with them and explaining why he's against it is such a tough option is because this is almost certain to cause a rift in the family. as i said, he likes to think of and present himself as an "apatheist," as he says it. however, he seems to only make this distinction between atheist and himself because he's given up explaining that "atheist" isn't a belief but rather a lack of belief. i think his wife was raised catholic and that much of her family is catholic and i couldn't explain why her protestant cousin would arrange for a catholic baptism except that maybe she talked to her own pastor and was told that baptism is for people old enough to talk?

skafather84
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13 Oct 2010, 2:56 pm

waltur wrote:

he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

He should take a stand on it on this issue alone. If he's to be an equal in the marriage and the life of his kids, then he can't have the mother's family undermining him and his views.

Seriously, that's straight up douchebaggery and the wife would be on notice for that as well if it were me. I wouldn't be surprised if she knew they were doing it but didn't tell him until after they had made arrangements to try and force him into agreeing to it.

waltur
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13 Oct 2010, 3:03 pm

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

knowing her, it's more likely that her family told her they wanted to do it and she said she didn't care and no one thought he would care because that's what he's told them, though not specifically about this. i wouldn't expect her to be trying to do this without his approval but rather i would expect she didn't want to get into the argument and would rather just appease them.

skafather84
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13 Oct 2010, 3:09 pm

waltur wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

Hrmmm. I still say he should decline. It shouldn't be much of a fight and he should be able to just calmly say "thanks but no thank you". Calm being the emphasis; he'll want to position himself as the civil person in matters.

It's kind of a shame that he's being pressured to be closeted about his views...which I understand he doesn't care but you also said he opposes organized religion and this definitely goes against that.

waltur
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13 Oct 2010, 3:16 pm

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

to all of that i say, "indeed."

it shouldn't be a fight. he should be able to just calmly say "thanks but no thank you." he shouldn't have to tip-toe around it or be closeted about his views. he's been really stressed out about it since he found out yesterday and while i enjoy "pushing the atheist agenda" online and in person with willing participants, unwittingly finding yourself debating the great question with relatives after they've already arranged to begin indoctrinating your barely-a-toddler, is a terrible prospect.

Janissy
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13 Oct 2010, 3:17 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:

Point 3: A Christian infant baptism involves the parents standing up in church and saying, in front of the family, yes, we believe in the Christian faith and we intend to bring this child up in it. If the priest concerned has an ounce of savvy, he'll actually be bothered if one of the parents can't honestly do this, so it might not be a bad idea to find out who he is and have a quiet word with him.

...

This right here is why he needs to put a stop to it, even though it will cause a fight. Sometimes "go along to get along" is a good policy. But this isn't one of those times. Both he and his wife are going to be asked in church to promise to raise the child Catholic. That's a promise neither of them can honestly make and that neither of them would keep. It's better that the inevitable fight happens in somebody's home instead of happening in church when it becomes apparent that they can't promise this.

The fact that they can't make or keep this promise is what they should say to the relatives who arranged it. There will be a fight. But you should not promise in church to do something you won't do and if the family has illusions this child will be raised a practicing Catholic, they might as well lose them now.

skafather84
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13 Oct 2010, 3:24 pm

waltur wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

waltur wrote:

he doesn't particularly want to start a fight with his wife's family but he feels insulted that they'd plan this behind his back.

Yeah. I say he should just say no and do it sooner than later. The closer you get, the worse the no will be. As it is...how much notice did he get on this?

I still think "say no thank you" and play it by ear from there.

skafather84
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13 Oct 2010, 3:26 pm

Something else: normally with this there's the whole godparent thing...who did they pick to be the godparents?

By "they" I mean the family since obviously the parents have no say in this. :roll:

And by "no say" I mean that they should "say no".

iamnotaparakeet
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13 Oct 2010, 3:41 pm

Would anyone be opposed to sending a Christian's child to an Atheist school?

waltur
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13 Oct 2010, 3:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Something else: normally with this there's the whole godparent thing...who did they pick to be the godparents?

By "they" I mean the family since obviously the parents have no say in this. :roll:

And by "no say" I mean that they should "say no".

it's just so ridiculous.

and as to notice, he found out yesterday and it's scheduled for sunday. so any time between now and then might as well be the same.

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