"Germany's multicultural society has utterly failed&quo

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Jacoby
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18 Oct 2010, 11:32 pm

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BERLIN (AP) — Chancellor Angela Merkel's declaration that Germany's attempts to build a multicultural society had "utterly failed" is feeding a growing debate over how to deal with the millions of foreigners who call the country home.

Merkel told a meeting of young members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union that while immigrants are welcome in Germany, they must learn the language and accept the country's cultural norms — sounding a note heard increasingly across Europe as it battles an economic slump and worries about homegrown terrorism.

"This multicultural approach, saying that we simply live side by side and live happily with each other has failed. Utterly failed," Merkel said.

Merkel's comments were met with applause by the more conservative members of her party, but some Germans in cosmopolitan Berlin argued Sunday she was out of touch with the country's daily life.

"I think her statement is very black and white and does not reflect honestly the lifestyle people are living here," said Daniela Jonas, a German setting up a flea market in the city's diverse Kreuzberg district, where immigrants and native-born Germans live among each other.

Germany and other European countries have grappled with the idea of themselves as immigration nations and Merkel has long been skeptical of the country's attempts to build a multicultural society that includes its estimated 5 million Muslims.

Many immigrants speak little or no German, work in low paying jobs or live off of government handouts at the same time the country faces an aging population and a shortage of highly skilled workers.

"Germany needs more qualified immigration to maintain its economic advantage and deal with the demographic developments," Volker Beck, a lawmaker with the opposition Greens party said Sunday.

Merkel acknowledged in her Saturday comments that then-West Germany in the 1960s opened its doors to Turkish laborers who helped the nation rebuild from the ruins of World War II. Yet German politicians believed those laborers would eventually return home. Instead, many have stayed and their children's children are now starting families here.

A European Championship football qualifier between Germany and Turkey last week reflected built-up tensions. Star Germany player Mesut Oezil, who is of Turkish heritage, was whistled and booed throughout the game by Turkey fans — who outnumbered German supporters in Berlin's Olympic stadium.

The 22-year-old Oezil has become Merkel's poster child for successful integration, and Turkish President Abdullah Gul said in an interview Saturday that he supported Oezil's decision to play for Germany instead of his parents' native Turkey.

Gul also called on Turks living in Germany to learn to speak German "fluently and without an accent," but insisted it was up to German politicians to create the opportunities for its Turkish citizens to learn the language and integrate into society.

"That must begin in kindergarten," Gul told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung. "I have told Mrs. Merkel that."

Last week, several German universities launched departments to train imams who would be able to lead prayers in German as well as Turkish. Most imams in Germany are sent from Turkey and speak no German.

Some argued Sunday that Merkel's comment makes them feel less welcome, and do nothing to encourage integration.

"It's a shame," said a man who gave his name only as Hakim, an immigrant from Morocco. "It is not good for the atmosphere in Germany and it is not a helpful comment."


I saw this the other day and thought it was interesting especially considering it was from the German Chancellor. I'm not German or European obviously so I don't know how things are on the ground there but hard not to see a little of a parallel to Mexican and other Latin American immigrants in the US.

Is it wrong or racist to not want immigrants who for whatever reason refuse to integrate into the country they move to's society? Whenever anybody has campaigned here in America on making English an official language they've usually been regarded by the media as racist and extremist. I've never really understood that. I think if you move to another country you should adapt to their culture and make it part your own. That means learning the language at the very least. That doesn't mean you have to leave behind your old culture either, this is just an addition to it.

I don't know, just putting my thoughts into words. Anybody got an opinion Merkel's comments or movements to make English an official language in the US or the like?

Please no attacking each other in this thread btw.



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18 Oct 2010, 11:53 pm

It's not the first time a conservative German targeted immigrants or ethnic minorities during economic hard times.

(In for the Godwin before anyone else. Obviously Merkel is not a Nazi, but I am mildly concerned about the scapegoating that occurs during economic troubles. It seems unlikely that immigrants are the cause of Germany's problems)

Jacoby wrote:
Is it wrong or racist to not want immigrants who for whatever reason refuse to integrate into the country they move to's society? Whenever anybody has campaigned here in America on making English an official language they've usually been regarded by the media as racist and extremist. I've never really understood that. I think if you move to another country you should adapt to their culture and make it part your own. That means learning the language at the very least. That doesn't mean you have to leave behind your old culture either, this is just an addition to it.

Immigrants who completely refuse to adapt to the native culture or make any attempt at even communicating with their new countrymen would certainly be a problem. I question the extent to which this actually happens; many cases may simply be that new immigrants don't always have a chance to integrate into the new culture or have a difficult time with a new language. They may stick in immigrant communities because those are the people they are actually able to relate to and communicate with, further hindering any attempts they might make at integrating into the new country. I'm sure there are some who outright refuse to adapt, but somehow I doubt that such people are a sizable portion of immigrants.

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I don't know, just putting my thoughts into words. Anybody got an opinion Merkel's comments or movements to make English an official language in the US or the like?

I don't see the need for an official language, but if we had one it would obviously be English.


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19 Oct 2010, 12:05 am

Eighty years ago Germany became famous (or infamous) for booting out anyone who was not an ethnic German.
"One people, one country, one leader".

Now they are expected to welcome millions of African Muslims into their country and they are nasty "racists" or "Nazis" if they don't approve of this change.

Indeed, they will be thrown into jail for "hate crimes" if they complain about it.



Last edited by Wombat on 19 Oct 2010, 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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19 Oct 2010, 12:05 am

If they truly don't want to integrate into society, then why are they there to begin with?

It should be something covered in citizenry classes. The idea that a society's success is both in its diversity but also its willingness to integrate at points. If you're moving to Germany, I'd think it would be a presumptuous of you to refuse to learn German. Same here, I understand learning a new language is hard but it shouldn't just be given up on.


But with language...eh, I say we should just all learn Esperanto and quit pussyfooting around the problem.


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Jacoby
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19 Oct 2010, 12:08 am

I don't think it would hurt anything to designate English as an official language at least. I never seen how such a measure has been regarded as racist or anything though.

skafather84 wrote:
If they truly don't want to integrate into society, then why are they there to begin with?

It should be something covered in citizenry classes. The idea that a society's success is both in its diversity but also its willingness to integrate at points. If you're moving to Germany, I'd think it would be a presumptuous of you to refuse to learn German. Same here, I understand learning a new language is hard but it shouldn't just be given up on.


But with language...eh, I say we should just all learn Esperanto and quit pussyfooting around the problem.


I suppose they're there for jobs and or the social services that aren't available in their home countries.



Last edited by Jacoby on 19 Oct 2010, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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19 Oct 2010, 12:25 am

Jacoby wrote:
I never seen how such a measure has been regarded as racist or anything though.


I'm not sure about racist but it's most certainly seen as a big cultural war point. I'm not quite sure what to think about the whole matter, though. I can understand both sides....which is why, in the end, I'd rather see everyone learn their own language then also Esperanto as a functional cross-boundary language and eventually the defacto primary language.

Fun fact for the Semites of the board: L.L. Zamenhof, the creator of Esperanto, was a Russian Ashkenazi Jew.


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Wombat
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19 Oct 2010, 12:26 am

Jacoby wrote:
I don't think it would hurt anything to designate English as an official language at least. I never seen how such a measure has been regarded as racist or anything though.


In the battle of languages English has won. The game is over.

Is this good or bad? It is silly that the people of Europe can't understand the people who live 100 miles away.

It will be sad to lose French or German or Danish, but there are only five million Danes. Do they really need a language of their own?

How many Scots or Welshmen or Irishmen still speak their own native language?

How about New Guinea? Should we preserve the language of one tiny tribe of 500 people or would they be better off if they all spoke English?



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19 Oct 2010, 12:39 am

skafather84 wrote:
If they truly don't want to integrate into society, then why are they there to begin with?

Precisely, which is why I don't think the issue is one of refusing to integrate, but rather having a difficult time of it. It seems a pretty big stretch of the imagination to picture someone moving from, say, Turkey to Germany when they prefer everything about Turkey over Germany.

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But with language...eh, I say we should just all learn Esperanto and quit pussyfooting around the problem.

Esperanto isn't intended to be a primary language though, and it's not really suited to the task. For everyone to use it as an auxiliary language would be good, but I would think that ideally everyone in a given country would be able to converse in the same "real" language.


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19 Oct 2010, 5:20 am

Recently banned forumite Hanotaux took his name from a Frenchman that voted against an Esperanto motion of the league of nations. The much more original Hanotaux' nutty idea was that teaching people a second language would be harmful to the French tongue.

Most of the young Danes already speak great English. The Netherlanders seem to speak it much more cleanly than many British Islanders. Disappearing their languages wouldnt make them better with English.

Here in Canada my paternal aunt failed first grade because she couldnt speak English. At that point it was determined that English would be spoken exclusively in my grandparents home. This was in the middle of the 1950s.

In my mums case a lady complained that mum had all the advantages because she was "English". The complainant was a seventh generation French Canadian. She was quite embarrassed when mum explained that she is actually a first generation Canadian. That English is mums first language is due to my grandmothers determination to adapt to a new country.

The French lady on the other hand, has probably made up her mind that shes never going to be "just Canadian".

The idea that the first and second generations cannot truly fit in is a bunch of baloney. If you want to fit in, you will. You dont even have to stop being who you were. I eat borscht and it doesnt insult my heritage. Pirogies are freakin delicious, and poutine was a dietary staple as a teen. Me and Grandma love Mexican food, and Chinese cuisine is the tradition for a family birthday supper. Nobody makes potatoes like the Greeks, and you ever have a bad Italian meal? Not me.

My life is richer for experiencing these things. And I'm hungry now.


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19 Oct 2010, 7:58 am

Post-Imperial guilt and slavish devotion to the EU has dropped the UK in a very similar situation. "Multi-Kulti" is a failure in its present form, it's just unfortunate that the Germans said it first, given their obvious history. That just feeds the "If you don't agree with EU rules on integration then you MUST be a racist and a Nazi." froth.

A bit of immigration here and there is good for a nation, but the kind of wholesale flooding we actually get is ruinous, and increases public dislike of "Johnny Foreigner".


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19 Oct 2010, 9:26 am

Wombat wrote:
How many Scots (...) still speak their own native language?


Most of them. The native language of lowland Scotland is Scots, not Scots Gaelic.


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19 Oct 2010, 1:35 pm

Wombat wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't think it would hurt anything to designate English as an official language at least. I never seen how such a measure has been regarded as racist or anything though.


In the battle of languages English has won. The game is over.

Is this good or bad? It is silly that the people of Europe can't understand the people who live 100 miles away.

It will be sad to lose French or German or Danish, but there are only five million Danes. Do they really need a language of their own?

How many Scots or Welshmen or Irishmen still speak their own native language?

How about New Guinea? Should we preserve the language of one tiny tribe of 500 people or would they be better off if they all spoke English?


Groups, communities of people will decide for themselves what language they prefer. It is probably good to know a common second language for communicating with people outside the group or community. I believe that a Lingua Franca (which nowadays is English) is a handy thing to have in order to participate in commerce and the exchange of ideas.

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19 Oct 2010, 1:57 pm

How convenient. Merkel shines a light on the failure of multikulti, and in so doing diverts attention from Germany's utter failure to cope with even a single culture. It is foolish to expect Germany to cope with an influx of Europeans (let alone Turks) when the divide between the Ossies and Wessies continues to bedevil Germany.


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19 Oct 2010, 5:34 pm

Same old fraudulent drivel.

One sees this happen so often. Liberals say "multiculturalism is great", the masses have misgivings about it, and then some conservative placates the masses by saying "multiculturalism isn't working, immigrants who come here need to integrate better".

"Great, now we're having a debate. After all, we live in a democracy, don't we", some people say, failing to realise that there are other legitimate questions and viewpoints the conservative does not even acknowledge, such as the questions:

Why don't we just stop mass immigration altogether, then we wouldn't need to worry so much about "integration"?
Wasn't it a bad idea to allow mass immigration in the first place, and can we now take steps to reverse it?
And - why should we become a mongrelized nation just to "solve" a problem we never voted for?

I would be tempted to describe Merkel as another "fake" conservative, but it would probably be more accurate to admit that this is, in practice, is what most conservatives are: liberals five or ten years late. Social liberals dictate the rules, and conservatives play along.



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19 Oct 2010, 9:12 pm

codarac wrote:
Same old fraudulent drivel.


Same old codarac.


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19 Oct 2010, 9:28 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
The idea that the first and second generations cannot truly fit in is a bunch of baloney. If you want to fit in, you will.

I have noticed that people who have overcome hardship (or whose families have overcome hardship) often believe that it must be possible for anyone to do the same if they so chose. I don't believe that is true; in the particular case of immigrants integrating into a new culture you have the obvious language barrier, which not all people are equally adept at surpassing, but you also have experiences both positive and negative with individuals in the host culture which can shape their efforts. Someone who meets a harsh response on their first attempts to learn English and be a part of Canadian or American culture will likely grow discouraged. Someone who gets the impression that they and their kind are not welcome in society at large may retreat back into their insular immigrant communities, which only further isolates them in a vicious cycle.

On an entirely unrelated note, I think I should point out the irony of an Aspie saying that "if you want to fit in, you will." :P


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