Did Jesus or His followers start a new religion?

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No.

And here's why:

These passages are clearly about Jesus.

And they are from the Jewish Scriptures from before Christ, and remain holy to religious Jews to this day!

Jesus was not only a practicing religious Jew, but also a respected rabbi in Israel. He was born of Jewish parents through the ancestoral line of King David, and he kept the feasts and law, and taught exclusively from the Jewish Scriptures about His own Messiahship -- and proved it to many Jews in so doing. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews, as were all of Jesus' apostles. Jesus taught that His hearers should adhere to the Jewish Scriptures. He also refused to go into Gentile land when asked to, claiming "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He also commanded his apostles to witness only to Jews.

The "New Covenant", or "Grace" -- Jesus dying for our sins and that forgiveness being free, which is Christianity's distinguishing feature -- is from the Jewish Scriptures! (Jer 31:31-34)

The other passage, which I quoted second, describes Jesus in the course of His then-future mission in vivid detail. It is also from the Jewish Scriptures, and is from Isaiah 52-53.

So, Jesus took over 99% of His teachings straight out of the Jewish Scriptures and cited them as He taught, He preached to Jews exclusively, chose exclusively Jews as his apostles, taught only in Israel, and these things were written in the four Gospels by Jews only.

So, any there any questions? Other than "How did Christianity come to be known as a Gentile religion?", which is the best question of all.

Last edited by Ragtime on 04 Apr 2012, 3:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

You should have made a poll, so that we could have voted on whether it was Jesus or his followers who had started the religion.

This is more of a learning discussion then it is a quick question. I'm mostly interested in what people will think after much discussion has taken place.

I've had this conversation with Jewish friends many times, and here are the 3 answers that I've heard:

1. Judaism and early Christianity split over the question of circumcision and other Jewish law/practices
2. Worship of Jesus is idolatry
3. A true Messiah's last words would not have been "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Whatever the reason for the split, nobody can deny that the two religions are worlds apart in the 21st century.

Last edited by mushroo on 04 Apr 2012, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Of course it was built from the Jewish religion. That's why the Jewish texts make up half the book. Anyway, I thought it was widely known that Jesus himself was a Jew, not a Christian.

As for his followers, it quickly starts building into something different and original.

I'm pretty sure that Jeremiah is not talking about Jesus, but rather about the return of Jews to Israel after the Babylonian exile.

Agreed. And that's a sad thing, given that there is nothing in the Scriptures of either religion which implies they should be split in any way.

Christianity is not just altered Judaism, it is syncretic with other religions such as Zoroastrianism and Mithraism. Even Judaism borrowed from earlier religions

It's not altered Judaism at all, that's my point. It is biblical Judaism, as I laid out in detail. There is no difference between a person correctly interpreting and accepting the Old Testament and a person who believes Jesus is the Son of God Who came the save the world from their sins and Hell. None. Jesus' salvation was specifically meant for the Jews, as both Old and New Testament Scripture says, and was only opened later to Gentiles because the Jewish religious establishment of Jesus' time rejected His teachings, though thousands of Jews received Him as the prophesied Jewish Messiah.

That really depends on context. Of course a Christian will believe Jesus was the messiah. Jews naturally had it down that there would be a messiah, but they do not believe Jesus was this man. They both however utilize the old testament. By this logic you might as well say that Islam is also the same

But I'm not using your logic. From here, we would need to look at the Isaiah passage carefully. Who does it describe if not Jesus?

I am not the one claiming Christianity is Biblical Judaism



Just as likely to be describing Mithras, or another contemporary religious figure with many similarities to the Jesus story. Almost everyone has or wants an underdog prophet. Sometimes you'll take a shoe out of a pile and it will be your size

The "real" Christians do more than claim Jesus was the prophetized Messia. They claim he was God incarnate.

That is fracking blasphemy.

ruveyn

True, God is his own son or whatnot

So its all Paul's fault for preaching to the Gentiles.
Jesus was only addressing Jews.

If the OP is correct then there are two logical conclusions (a) Jews have to be Christian, and (b) Gentiles cant be Christian.

So- all the World's Jews have to convert.

And all Billion plus Gentile Christians have to UN-Convert, and go back to the Paganism of their ancestors ( unless they want ot get circumcised and go through whatever other Fraternity hazing it takes to convert to Judaism- so they can THEN be christian) because Christianity is for Jews only and not gentiles.

The op has found a theological way to offend both Christians AND Jews.
Quite an acheivement!