a sodomy question for christians

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this came up in the thread on the bible and the prudence of revealing ones homosexuality, however i thought a new thread might bring more clarity to the matter, rather than it being tucked away in the other thread.

my understanding of the term sodomy, as used in the vernacular sense in the uk, and as i understood it, the us of a, applies to any sort of non procreative sex (i.e. oral or anal sex, or indeed masturbation, either alone or between any combination of genders).

according to arrant pariah, however, in the biblical sense, this is not the case. further, arrant pariah suggests that, in fact, dancing is considered a form of sodomy, although i cannot be sure whether or not this comment was made in light-hearted jest.

if any of the christian members of the forum could shed any light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated. admittedly my understanding and knowledge of the bible is scant, not being a christian myself and never having had been.

if arrant pariah is right, and my assumptions are correct, this might be something of a revelation for a good number of christians, and open up a whole new arsenal of sexual acts that they might add to their repertoire.

To my understanding, the use of the word "sodomy" in The Bible refers to non-procreational sex acts between people, but not neccisarily all sex acts; I know the phrase "self-indulgence" is often used to mean masturbation.

Whatever it means, I highly doubt a redifinition of the word would have any bearing on church doctrines. Most Christians except for Mormons, devout Catholics, and maybe some stricter denominations don't follow or have rules on what acts are and are not sinful anyway; so long as it's between you and your opposite-sex spouse it's okay is the usual consensus.

Last edited by USMCnBNSFdude on 24 Jul 2012, 2:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

"Sodomy" can be defined very vaguely, or very rigidly, depending on which branch of Christianity you are. Mainline Protestantism (Episcopal, Lutheran, etc.) doesn't take much issue with it. On the other hand, the Evangelical, fundamentalist groups, and maybe Catholicism to a lesser extent, consider it a very serious offense, and define it as any sexual act not resulting in procreation.

As a Lutheran, I am not concerned with their definition, and they have taken strides matched only by the Episcopal Church in terms of reaching out to the LGBT community. My main concern is that there are states in the U.S. that still have sodomy laws on their books, despite the laws being struck down by Lawrence v. Texas. (Strangely enough, I live only 10-15 minutes from the apartment complex where the incident occurred that prompted the Supreme Court case).

My concern is that I would be caught up in a bizarre police raid due to arbritary enforcement of said laws, not any Biblical consequences. (I'm straight, but I love receiving oral sex).

to USMCnBNSFdude:

hmm. that was also my understanding. googling the issue draws up a variety of points of view, many of which are penned by atheists and appear to be facetious in nature.

would this, perhaps, be an ecumenical matter?

were it to be the case that i myself was a christian, i'd really want clear and robust guidance on this. to be following a system of belief whereby my sexual behaviour was governed by what appears outwardly to be a rather strict moral code of guidance on pain of eternal damnation (but which, in view of the point raised in this thread may in fact be somewhat vague when scrutinised), i would be loathe to risk it.

i would, however, be compelled to balance this with a mindfulness that i would wish to maximise the arsenal of sexual behaviours in which i could participate in good faith, and happily indulge in a guilt free manner, confident that i was not opening up the possibility of eternal damnation.

i see this as something of a quandary.


thanks tim tex also for your input and opinion.

I was just joking about the dancing. There is an old Baptist joke



Sodomy is an English word, that might entail a number of practices, that might or might not have been considered naughty by the biblical authors.

I would suggest looking at specific passages, and, if from the Old Testament, getting input from a Jew (or from someone who is really good at Hebrew). English translations vary a lot.

Paul of the New Testament tends to be excessively anti-sex.

Cum to think of it, I think that Orthodox Jews are only supposed to ejaculate into a woman's vagina. Here is an interesting article.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jew ... bled=false

Even when using a prostitute, they won't use a condom.

http://www.adishakti.org/_/haredin_(orthodox_Jews)_who_crowd_brothels.htm

Christian faith is more about inside-out expression of faith. You're not going to hell for sodomy. You're going to hell for not accepting Christ as Savior. The central idea relating to Christian behavior is that Christ living in the believer influences his or her behavior--which is why the NT writer goes on to make a list of all the kinds of sinners who won't make it into heaven. The list pretty much includes everyone, though, and the point is that believers can expect to feel a conviction regarding certain behaviors as wrong or displeasing to God. If you are a believer, my advice is "When in doubt, DON'T." If you rely on a strict moral code to get your fire insurance, you're going to fail because even Christians are still subject to their own moral failings

I don't know what in the world is so evil about oral sex, though. I'm not personally into it, but for someone like me it still has a practical function--being slathered in saliva aids penetration. And I'm just icked out when it comes to going through the "back door."

I'm also baffled by religious groups' repulsion to condom use. The Bible seems to consider "spilling seed" as merely improper, not something that will incur God's wrath. The sin of Onan might be viewed as such, but I think the point of Er and Onan was that they were disobedient to God; refusing to procreate was just the final straw. The Law of Moses acknowledges that men have "emissions" in the night and gives instructions for purification afterwards. It's merely "unclean," not something you'll get stoned for. Although for those who are ritually unclean and obstinately refuse purifications, they are to be "cut off from their people."

The sin of Sodom was not so much buggery as it was that their behaviors had become so ingrained into their society that there was nothing left for God to redeem. It ran so deep that the men of Sodom wanted to violate messengers of God--I'm assuming those men attributed some kind of spiritual significance to the act.

As far as what Christians can/can't do... Monogamy is the ideal, especially in NT. Plural marriage is discouraged even in the OT, but it does happen for various reasons. But it is generally a bad idea even then. Unbetrothed sex in the OT isn't outright condemned, but it's not encouraged, either. The expectation is that if two people have sex they will get married. In the modern context, I'd say that two people are unmarried and have sex, they should get married as quickly as possible. As long as sex acts are confined to this relationship, there doesn't seem to be any further restriction.

Incidentally, my wife is more of a "Plain Jane" in that department. She prefers me to do all the work, so good ol' missionary style is pretty much standard. I'm more into girl-on-top myself, though. One of these days I'm going to convince her to do that legendary "Reverse Mormon" I keep hearing about.

I think that may have been due to Greco-Roman cultural influence.


Where is that?


I think that the OT generally regards women as property, of either the father or the husband. Having coitus with (or raping) another man's wife or daughter would have consequences.


Not in all cases. A man wouldn't be expected to marry a prostitute, nor his neighbor's wife. If the girl is unbetrothed, then he has to pay the girl's father the bride price and marry her. This is the only situation where he is forbidden to divorce her.


Even if gay?


I think that it is mostly protestants who follow this.


Who is telling you about the Reverse Mormon?

Do Christians do sodomy in a manner different from other groups?

ruveyn

A lot of Christians won't commit sodomy while dancing.

Bareback and unlubed

Maybe, but the Greeks and Romans weren't strictly monogamous, either. Concubinage seems to be something they and the Israelites had in common.


Abraham and Hagar, Jacob with Leah and Rachel, Solomon and hundreds of princesses... The Bible doesn't explicitly say "don't do it," but it does connect plural marriage with disaster. Not so much with Leah and Rachel, but it did cause a heated rivalry between the two sisters. God's own institution of marriage between Adam and Eve did not include any other plurality.


I think the OT is just a commentary on the state of the world at the time it was written. Women were treated as property, but this isn't a Biblical institution. The Bible's purpose in terms of certain laws was to take a status quo and steer it in a humane direction, e.g. slavery. Abraham's wife Sarah certainly doesn't seem to have an entirely subservient role to Abraham. Abraham sometimes receives divine instruction to listen to her.


No, not in ALL cases. I was referring specifically to the unbetrothed; but it doesn't seem, either, to be the case with the betrothed. You might run into issues with proving the virginity of the bride, however. Chastity prior to marriage would ensure the legal safety of the marriage partners.


Oh, please...I've said before already that even gays already have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. Even a gay man who decides to have an ongoing, monogamous relationship with a woman should marry her.


Well, nobody is perfect.


Surely, you of all people MUST know about the Reverse Mormon!

Never heard of it.

Is a "Reverse Mormon" a Mormon that wears a black shirt and white tie and proselytizes door to door on a unicycle

There is some talk of bringing polygamy back to Israel.

http://www.huliq.com/8738/israeli-group ... mys-return

I don't know... How do you do it?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer