Can Progress be defined in a non-subjective manner?

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Can Progress be defined in a non-subjective manner?
Sure is dopey, I will put my definition in a reply. 50%  50%  [ 3 ]
Not non-subjectively but the word is meaningful. 33%  33%  [ 2 ]
unfortunately yes the word is objectively meaningless. 17%  17%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 6

JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 10:01 am

My training is in anthropology where I learned that the ascent of man diagram is bullsugar
Image
That evolution is not about progress towards a goal but adaptation to a niche.

In my politics I am what some folks call progressive. The problem is that I can't find a way that the term is
objectively meaningful. I don't believe in a Marxist inevitable progression or that Progress can mean anything other than the subjective ,moving towards something I like better. I don't see things necessarily moving in my preferred direction so that does not work.

What are your solutions to this issue? What is progress?


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Khandov
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16 Aug 2012, 10:20 am

Without a change, there is no progress. But not every change is progress. For me progress is simply making of a thing better in practice. The problem is, some people believe that progress is something that is in fact no progress on long term.



Last edited by Khandov on 16 Aug 2012, 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 10:24 am

Khandov wrote:
Without a change, there is no progress. But not every change is progress. For me progress is simply making of a thing better in practice.


With a goal like efficiency or beauty or whatnot?


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Khandov
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16 Aug 2012, 10:29 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
Khandov wrote:
Without a change, there is no progress. But not every change is progress. For me progress is simply making of a thing better in practice.


With a goal like efficiency or beauty or whatnot?


Everything that is good for humanity, I believe.



JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 10:42 am

Khandov wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Khandov wrote:
Without a change, there is no progress. But not every change is progress. For me progress is simply making of a thing better in practice.


With a goal like efficiency or beauty or whatnot?


Everything that is good for humanity, I believe.


Very nice, what is good is a value judgement and requires morality.


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Khandov
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16 Aug 2012, 10:49 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
Khandov wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Khandov wrote:
Without a change, there is no progress. But not every change is progress. For me progress is simply making of a thing better in practice.


With a goal like efficiency or beauty or whatnot?


Everything that is good for humanity, I believe.


Very nice, what is good is a value judgement and requires morality.


Agreed. Progress without objective morality leads in practice to nothing good, so I dare to say that such progress is no progress at all.



ruveyn
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16 Aug 2012, 11:26 am

Improvements in technology are not only discernible, but measurable.

ruveyn



JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 11:40 am

ruveyn wrote:
Improvements in technology are not only discernible, but measurable.

ruveyn


And to boot they have a built in arrow of progress.
But do all technological improvement make things better using utilitarianism as the criteria?


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ruveyn
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16 Aug 2012, 12:25 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Improvements in technology are not only discernible, but measurable.

ruveyn


And to boot they have a built in arrow of progress.
But do all technological improvement make things better using utilitarianism as the criteria?


Some advances in technology improve our "quality of life". Others do not.

ruveyn



JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 12:50 pm

ruveyn wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Improvements in technology are not only discernible, but measurable.

ruveyn


And to boot they have a built in arrow of progress.
But do all technological improvement make things better using utilitarianism as the criteria?


Some advances in technology improve our "quality of life". Others do not.

ruveyn


Unfortunately


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Underscore
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16 Aug 2012, 1:04 pm

You can argue what progress can be, I believe. So that it becomes an objective goal. I think you can argue everything. To make progress something subjective is dangerous. Nazism is the worst example. Or is it? It must be argued.



JakobVirgil
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16 Aug 2012, 2:29 pm

Underscore wrote:
You can argue what progress can be, I believe. So that it becomes an objective goal. I think you can argue everything. To make progress something subjective is dangerous. Nazism is the worst example. Or is it? It must be argued.


Make it objective then.
and give me your results.
personally I would really like a moral definition of progress to get behind.


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visagrunt
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16 Aug 2012, 2:37 pm

Of course it can be defined in an objective fashion. The question is whether any of those definitions are useful.

Per-capita GDP by PPP is an objective measure, and its growth progressive towards a more prosperous society.
Growth in a country's human development index is objective.
Improvements in a country's leading health indicators are objective.

National bureaux of statistics involve themselves in an ongoing exercise of counting, classifying and analysing, and political leaders use these data and analyses to evaluate the initiatives that they have taken and to predict the impact of initiatives that they are contemplating.

But this objectivity--in the name of "evidence based policy making"-- is a bit of a canard, because there will always be the individual who is an outlier for whom any objective assessment is meaningless because nothing has actually been done to improve that person's subjective assessment of the quality of their own life.


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ruveyn
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16 Aug 2012, 2:48 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Underscore wrote:
You can argue what progress can be, I believe. So that it becomes an objective goal. I think you can argue everything. To make progress something subjective is dangerous. Nazism is the worst example. Or is it? It must be argued.


Make it objective then.
and give me your results.
personally I would really like a moral definition of progress to get behind.


It can't be done. Preferences in direction are subjective.

ruveyn



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17 Aug 2012, 7:30 am

To argue: Progress, progression, to make us go further. To make things better. If you start with a statement, like saying progression is to make the lives of people in the world better, you can either, objectively, approve this or you can question it. Is progression to make the lives of people in the world better?

You can discuss this and conclude with something objective. Like saying that progress in the world most definitely must be making people's lives better, because lives of people is the most absolute we have in this world. The more time you use on this discussion the more objective it will be. Because there is an objective answer, you just have to find out what it is. This particular questioning don't have to be done right now, though.

If progression is to make the lives of people in the world better, in what way do you do this. You could say by evolving, developing and expanding the sciences, which follows objective reasoning, it would better the lives of people. Why would you do this, and not something else? Because it is so important.

I don't know if I proved my point with this.



Oldout
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17 Aug 2012, 9:49 am

But can't "progress" be a Trojan horse. For example, most would think the invention of the automobile as progress, yet that same automobile pollutes our environment, enables drunk drivers, and quite likely makes us all fatter since we walk less.