On bliss/ecstacy

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I know people say that in life suffering is optional, and this is one of those things that I generally believe has profound wisdom. Yes, life can be incredibly hard but whether you're happy or miserable has a lot to do with your own internal habits.

My question in this thread/post - do you think ecstacy and bliss are similar choices? I try to think of why these two things (or perhaps synonyms for the same thing) aren't like anything else - ie. practice making better.

What are your thoughts?

Often I hear the word Attitude applied to things like this, but I think the most important thing is finding Perspective. You can choose to develop a more informed point of view.

In that case, I think it can be more optional. A knowledgeable person with a wider perspective of the world and history is in a better position to steer themselves toward happiness or suffering.

It is entirely possible though that even a very knowledgeable person could put the weight of the world's suffering on themselves or be on a strange guilt trip. If that is the case than hopefully with time, study, and contemplation a person like that can have an internal debate with their ideas and decide they can change.

On the other hand, if a person is very ignorant, I'm not sure they will grasp concepts like this. If it does happen, it would be by accident such as seeing another person like themselves change. Instead of thinking it over it would be an unexpected revelation hitting them like a load of bricks.

Bliss that doesn't depend on the external circunstances (assuming the external circunstances are not extreme) can be cultivated easily through meditation, with the apropriate method.

The same is true with suffering: emotional and physical pain can be dealt in a way that you don't actualy suffer. That requires sustained mental training. I atended a retreat where at the end, my mind was so well trained that you could stabb my leg and I wouldn't suffer with it. It would hurt, but pain is not the same as suffering. Suffering is a mental phenomenon.

I think both of these show people that if they're looking for such things as bliss and ecstacy, they won't find it 'out there' - ie. at the club or bar, at the coffee shop, at the soccer or baseball field, and quite doubtful would they find it in the arms of a significant other. All of those have ups and downs, good times and stale, and life conditions can show a person that none of the above are reliable.

I like how you say that the more a person knows the more fuel they have. In my own life I've been driven by a strong sense of urgency. The best way I can explain it is how with some music, or particularly very warm early spring or summer days without a cloud the sky or where the clouds are beautiful and innocuous, you feel enough beauty and vibrancy to be nearly moved to tears, and with that can come this sense of urgency - ie. the feeling of this is where I want to be, how do I get there? What do I have to do to shine like the sun or shine like the people that I've looked up to who seemed like the living epitomies of grace earlier in my life?

I think those sensations partly show what society can make of life for us but, I think they also point us toward ourselves. I spent a lot of my life chasing these feelings in music - I still do like to pin it down that way but I'm getting reminders these days that there's no 'crowd' I could find, no place of worldly success, ie. nothing would give me that. That's where I realize that the songs, the environments, etc. aren't feeling these things - I am. That's where thought processes start to get interesting.

That's where I think I'm at right now - looking at the methods.

I've come up with something else that's kinda crazy but I think it might work wonders. In some very conscious ways I've kind of divided myself into two - the person who's somewhat frail to the outside world (albeit not nearly as much as I used to be) on one hand and an internal guardian/protector who isn't slave to what I look like, how society might try to cast me, and accordingly has no risk of its bearing on reality being tossed around by the wind by external circumstances. Then what I try to do is give that internal sort of perfect-attitude me more and more control, let its unconditional love and even fierce jealousy toward anything that could harm me inwardly shine through, and essentially I'm trying that on as a true-up system.

It probably won't have a particularly big impact on my social or personal habits for a while since house-cleaning is still under way but I like the thought of having such an energy about me that not only would I have lots in reserve to give the world around me but I'd also be lifting other people's days just by the sheer level and quality of energy I'd have shining through my pores.

Hmm..... I'm also thinking a consequence of a wider perspective is a feeling of insignificance in the greater scheme of things. I wonder if that could lead to a sense of urgency? Amazing things are happening out there that you want to be a part off.

So while a wide perspective is a good thing, introspection is also important. Taking note of what you can achieve with what you have and where you are at in life. The world offers amazing things to participate in, but you can be mindful of how hard you are pushing yourself. Or consider many successful people push themselves so hard they succumb to drug abuse. It is fine to be ambitious but also steady and mindful.

It may sound weird at first, but I think having internal dialogues with parts of you mind can be productive. Call it asking yourself rhetorical questions and considering the answers that rise in your mind. This may help develop self-knowledge.

Also, I sometimes think our minds are more like a committee board room and our Consciousness/Ego is the chairman. The board members may be an unruly bunch of emotions and urges, so we must be steady in dealing with them. Talk to the part of yourself that is Anger for example rather than put Anger in a mental cage and beat it down. Same for Lust or Desire or things like Addiction.

I think with this you become smarter about yourself. Even better maybe your sense of Anger becomes smarter. I would say an informed Anger arises with things like a developed sense of injustice for example and is tempered by knowledge and more deliberate. Really ignorant people with an uninformed Anger can ultimately express that as delusional blind rage like a berserk fighter.

Last edited by VIDEODROME on 02 Feb 2013, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can advise a small, good and free meditation book on metta. I remember specificaly in that book the author saying that during the meditation session if you're so happy that tears come out of your eyes, you should do so and so. The Metta practice is realy powerful. Enjoy.

http://www.buddhanet.net/metta_b.htm

I'm doing something even more edgy and unusual - ie. I'm trying this from the Christian perspective. I look at how so much of what's looked at as 'iniquity' comes from people having poor psychological/spiritual hygiene and additionally in Matthew how Jesus speaks to the crowd telling them that the Lord will treat them according to their own temperament, their own mercy, their own compassion, etc.. It seems like if I can live the beatitudes I'll be giving a lot back to the world around me.

I'm getting even gutsier than that - ie. I'm talking full blown imaginary friend level business (or not so imaginary being that its a part of myself and I can do with my own inner world whatever I deem fit). Being able to project them outwardly in certain ways does a strange thing - it gives your own thoughts to be able to feed back to you as if it were edification coming from a real/physical person in your life. Even though I could reason with myself prior to that it still took a lot of effort if things weren't going right or if I had considerable cause for anxiety - this bypasses that and it seems to be the much more quick, dirty, and effective.


I think that's where I'm at. I tend to see stress and anger as self-induced damage and I try to save them for when and where they're necessary for the right reasons. Otherwise I know for a fact - from experience - that being macho or hyperjudgemental doesn't make me stronger or more manly, in fact it makes me more run down and more weak which is why I've taken every effort now to get away from such habits.

I know that feeling exactly. Its what I've historically thought of as New Years Eve sickness; ie. I'll be watching Times Square, other places around the world, etc. as the ball drops and I'd always feel sick and even depressed that I couldn't be everywhere and everyone at once to enjoy such an epic moment.

Then again I think that illustrates the exact problem of looking to find such fulfillment outwardly. Yes, you do what you can to make the most of the external but wherever it comes up short you look inside, otherwise that feeling of missing something continues to gnaw and do quite a bit of damage.

bliss is what remains when other forms of suffering are absent. most people seem to live nearly all the time with a baseline of [comparatively] subtle stress/tension that they are so accustomed to they do not view it as stress at all (though it is still what stands in the way of contentment). through meditative practice (or contemplative prayer, if you prefer) one can learn to recognize subtler forms of tension as tension, and release them. in the letting go, increasingly refined states of bliss arise.

if you gain sufficient sensitivity to the movement of intentional energy, the vortex of affective sensations that may seem to you to be (or emanate from) your very soul, give it to god (in phenomenologically equivalent non-buddhist terms), by neither expressing nor repressing (not complicated), but simply letting it go, and in the dying of intention you may find union with god (if that is how you are inclined to interpret it). let be the death throes of desire. let be what arises precisely the way it comes as though you are listening for the voice of god and that voice could be anything.

I just found this article, really fascinating take on Christian paths to enlightenment:

http://www.innerexplorations.com/ewtext/chen.htm

The thing I can't help but notice about myself, just how up I am for inward adventure and how much I really, truly, and deeply want to keep 'all of this' secondary rather than primary. It goes with that feeling that there's really nothing out there. The later seems like its something the wisest among us learn and being a little on the slow side its taken me a while to really and fully have the full implications set in and when I think I've disentangled so much I realize just how little I've done.

Well, for me I'd say ecstasy/bliss are really just all the same thing. For me, I don't think Christianity is where you want to be if you just want "enlightenment." I've had "light-bulb" enlightenment kinds of moments or experiences, all of which affected me deeply. I'm by no means completely "mature" in my faith, but various events in my life really helped spur on my faith. I recently ended on spiritually journey and began a new one, though I'd say the new one is more a much-needed lifestyle change that will hopefully act as an outward reflection of my inner relationship with God. I apologize for yet another tl;dr post, but I feel given the topic something a little detailed than "I didn't eat for 40 days" is necessary.

As far as inward adventures go, my 40 day fast ended at sunrise 8 days ago. The day started out with a short Bible reading, a prayer, and a symbolic gesture of giving thanks. My first taste of orange juice after that was all the more worth it after such a long period of denying the senses (and the stomach) and was rewarding in a feeling akin to an ecstatic experience.

I maintained my fluid intake much like I did during the fast and avoided solid foods for 3 days, eating only small portions, about 8 ounces per meal, of a mixture of milk and vegetable stock very lightly seasoned. Since last Wednesday I've switched to eating vegetable soup rather than just milk and stock alone. While my blood volume has gotten back pretty close to normal, my electrolytes still need more time to get back in balance. Severe potassium deficiency has left me with muscle weakness and myalgia. So to combat that I drink another 4 oz. glass of OJ before bedtime. Starting today, I added yogurt to my breakfast. I'm not happy about all the chemical additives, such as sweeteners and preservatives as they really spoil the taste of the OJ, but on the bright side some of those chemicals happen to match the electrolytes I need most right now. I may resort to making my own yogurt so at least I know what I'm eating and have better control of it. I really just need the bacteria since I killed much of it from lack of eating. I also started using an inulin fiber supplement as a prebiotic to hopefully give the yogurt a little boost.

Last week, though, I decided to try returning to normal activity and found it very, VERY difficult. I've had to go back to bending and lifting, playing with kids, and TRY to get some work done. While I was able to interact with my children a bit better, lifting car seats and handling the baby really took a toll on me over the week. And then I had a benefit concert to play on Saturday, which meant tearing down my studio, loading the van, unloading at 11:30 the next morning, sitting in on bass for one band's sound check, meeting with the headliner, learning one of her songs, sound check with my own band, and FINALLY making it home a little after 5 for a quick nap/rest time and change clothes. Get back to the venue a little after 6:30, first band started up about 7:45, we went on after, and then wait for my cue from the headline act. Tear down, load the van, eat dinner a little after 11:00 p.m. Get up Sunday morning, sound check at the church at 9:15. Sound check is over by 9:50, take a quick breather, and unload the van.

All that on a potassium imbalance, and I've had bicep cramps, leg cramps, and involuntary muscle contractions in my fingers/toes if I'm having to carry something even short distances at least since Thursday. And I won't even get into what it was like having a bowel movement for the first time in 45 days! I'm feeling a little bit stronger every day, just now starting to feel the expected gastric disturbances (which is a relief), and hoping the electrolyte imbalance will start to correct itself soon.

Some things I learned over the fasting period: We don't need food THAT badly. I'm plenty satisfied with eating meals that measure out to be 16 oz. or less. I'm perfectly fine avoiding any kind of sodas, including diet sodas. I wake up just fine without a cup of coffee in the morning. I no longer need caffeine. And I just really don't need a lot of things that people can't seem to do without. I love cooking for my family. I don't need to eat at restaurants. I don't have to spend a lot of money on food. I'm looking forward to planting a vegetable garden and caring for it and maybe even make a little money off our surplus by setting up a table at the farmer's market. I strongly desire becoming a better provider for my family and am opening myself up to getting some kind of part-time "real" job so we can do better than just make ends meet (which we do well, btw).

I've been all too aware that I live a mostly sedentary lifestyle. During my fasting, I lost over 50 lb., mostly body fat from what I can tell. My muscle doesn't seem to have been affected, I just attribute the weakness to electrolyte deficiencies. But at the very least my cardio strength has been pitiful most of my life. So today, despite the other issues I'm experiencing, I took to the stairs when I got in to work this morning. I had a set plan for climbing the stairs, and getting through it all took about 40 minutes. So, sure, I was out of breathe, my heart was definitely working a little harder, I got just a little sweat action going, and I'd started feeling a little numbness around my knees. However, I do think while the weather is still coolish this is something I can make a daily habit of. The point is, this: The insight I gained while fasting has really challenged and motivated me to make permanent lifestyle changes and resist powerful temptations. I do NOT want to go back to the person I was before I fasted.

It's not that I'm a bad person, it's not that I didn't follow the Spirit's direction or obey God or seek a closer relationship. It's just feeling a ton of conviction, looking back on my life, wondering WHAT HAPPENED that got me in as bad shape as I am, a strong desire to get even closer to God, and to be a better example to my wife and children on what it really means to live a life of faith and obedience. That doesn't mean everyone has to go on a hunger strike and put their physical well-being at such a high risk the way I did. I didn't HAVE to test God to know what God expects from me. But people who know me and especially those with an intimate relationship with me like me family can just look at me and see a visible difference. So now people ask questions, want to know why I look so good, what my weight-loss secret is, etc. And I just tell them that it was about spiritual direction and placing my life in God's hands and allowing God to supply my needs. Food is never the answer. Dieting is never the answer.

Obedience is the answer, though, and I've learned that rather than complaining about being hungry/thirsty, we should be thankful that God is faithful to supply our real needs, whether physical needs or spiritual needs. The Israelites were led into the wilderness to wander for 40 years, and the point of the wandering was to humble them and help them recognize their total dependence on God alone as demonstrated by the manna. For me, I gained humility by being physically filled with water alone, and I survived with some struggle all 40 days and nights of my fast. I also gained humility in cooking for my family and serving them with food I'd intended for myself to eat...but rather only smelled and tasted the food without swallowing and thus breaking the fast. I'd rinse out my mouth and drink sparkling water to clear my palate. And that was it. And it made me happy to do it because I'd lost all desire for food. So now I'm starting over and ONLY consuming what is absolutely necessary to get through the day, and I eat nothing without a SPECIFIC REASON to do so. Eventually I'll break the pattern and pig out, but this is to be an extreme rarity in my life now. God gives us what we NEED. The Christian lifestyle should entail taking only what is actually NEEDED, be content with it, and expect no more. Rather than pig out on your excesses and surplus, give food to the homeless and hungry. Fast once a week, preferably without food and even water (I physically can't go without water yet, but I'll get there) just so you can let God remind yourself that it is God who sustains you and nothing/no one else.

***Caveat to fasting: I'm aware that there are people who physically CANNOT fast ever, not even for a day. This was a spiritual journey I felt called to do, and when I examined not just the calling for me to fast, but also the signs as to whether such a feat was feasible, safe, and precedented, I found that there was no reason why I couldn't or shouldn't. I chose not to fast under medical supervision or to supplement with vitamins. I'd been gradually preparing myself by reducing my diet down to vegetables and milk over a period of 3 or 4 months. There are other, perhaps better ways to prepare, there are ways to avoid or diminish electrolyte imbalance, and working under the care of a doctor during and after the fast is much safer than the route I chose. However, I have my reasons for how I did things and how I'm choosing to recover. I cannot speak to anyone else's experiences but my own, and unless you can say without any doubts you know this is what you're supposed to do, I would strongly recommend AGAINST it.

I have people who think I'm crazy for what I did when I tell them the truth. My favorite response is, "Weren't you ever concerned about your health? I mean, God doesn't expect you to harm yourself or get sick..." I simply explain that while I don't believe self-destructive behavior is in God's plan for us, I do think that God demands obedience over all else. So if someone is called to do something that extreme, and don't forget there are scriptural precedents for extended fasts and extended fasting is not unknown even in the secular world outside Christianity, the person enduring the trial is called to place everything in God's hands--strength to accomplish my day-to-day tasks, even my health, and the outcome of my recovery. So if God tells me to do it, assures me it is the right thing to do, and holds my health and even my life in His hands, doesn't it make sense that I'll be just fine? Whether I live or die, whether I eat or I don't eat, none of those things is my concern. I think many Christians pay lip-service to that fact but don't actually live it out. It doesn't take fasting to get there, of course, but finishing this thing successfully has really opened up more avenues to help fellow believers see a whole different side of what living a Christian life really means. More importantly than what I learned from the experience is what I get to share with others. The weight loss, new haircut, and other changes I'm making are just outward signs of what was already there.

People want the physical appearance, want to know the big secret, and so on. I just want to say, "stop looking at the outside. Work on the inside first. Work on your soul...or rather devote yourself to giving your WHOLE being to God and actually allow God to work on you. Everything else--the physical things, the good things you think you see--will follow. But as long as you are fearful and keep holding back on your willingness to live by faith, you will never get what you want.

And so for me, just barely a week into my recovery, do I go back to my old habits or do I remember to be satisfied that what God has given me is enough? I monitor my weight daily, of course. Some weight gain is to be expected, and most people who fast tend to put weight back on rapidly. However, this is easily controlled by increasing my activity, like moderate stair climbing. Perhaps next week I'll resume walking 5 miles every day. And maybe after a month post-fasting I'll start a regular cardio-intensive exercise program in addition to stair-climbing and walking, or work up to running, and after 2 months start resistance training... In any case, if I'm gaining a lot of weight, hopefully it's lean muscle and not a few spare tires. Less important is how much I weigh. More important is whether I'm doing just enough to stay alive and whether how I take care of myself is reflective of what God wants from me.

Right now, of course, I'm dealing with a lot of physical pain, especially now that I'm trying to exercise again. However, I recognize that it is a temptation to indulge in laziness or to eat more than I really need to (by rapidly boosting sodium and potassium, more calories for more energy to do, well...nothing). The truth is I need this pain in order to fully realize the changes in my lifestyle that are necessary to maintain what I have now. It will pass whether I eat too much or just enough, whether I exercise or not. The bliss of knowing that I'm changing more into what I've always wanted to be and, I hope, what God always intended for me to be shines through the pain. It is that comfort I feel that keeps me pushing ahead and not looking back, except of course to say, "Wow...how did I ever get to be that STUPID?" I look back because I don't ever want to go back there again. So, sure, it's nice having the weight GONE. Now it's all about the cleanup. I have some 15 years of damage to undo. Time to get to work!

I've had it brought to me though as the way, truth, and light. Its because of that that I wouldn't discard it due to wanting something particular from it. My general drive is aimed at getting past 'this' or thinning the veil so to speak. After looking at the OT and then starting to read my way through Matthew and Mark again I'm seeing how many times Jesus references us being able to do by faith what he does, speaks of the different soils seed may fall in, and so much of that latter parable is for us to really manage our soil to the best of our own ability and sort out iniquity, ie. we'll never get it *all* done ourselves but we can make a very proactive endeavor of getting as much done as possible. When taking work on self in that direction I'm seeing where Christian mysticism really takes on a lot of Zen-like aspects, just that you're perpetually thinning the ego and thus thinning the distances or thinning the veil of separation from Christ. For myself I can't stress enough that I have a driving need, just inherently, to do such things and really try to find such depth of connection. When I find myself hearing what kundalini yoga people can do for themselves in terms of visions or other buddhists likewise my mouth almost waters and then I'm forced to remind myself.....yeah, but that direction is not of God (I could be wrong and find out otherwise, but for right now I'm dealt that impression). Using similar ego-thinning and bad habit disassembly seems to be perfectly in linne with a lot of what Jesus said also about how the Father will judge us how we judge others, treat us how we treat others, aside from eschatological specifics it seems like that last part is deemed most important. I'd much prefer to do something active like that, treat prayer as a state of consciousness and thus pray all day by being there, rather than stick to a waiting-room mentality.


I'll have to read the rest of it later, right now isn't a good time. I'll admit I don't know a lot about fasting, my own personal situation with it is I show a lot of prediabetic signs in general, have for years, and if I have bad hand tremors before lunch if I've had a small breakfast and no mid-morning caloric intake its probably not a wise thing for me to try right off the bat. Supposedly all things are possible so who knows, maybe eventually. I'll likely work on meditation and best practice in other ways though before I get quite that ambitious.