Two Beasts of Revelation - Thousand Plus Yrs Apart?

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This is really to the Christians here.

As you know there are two beasts mentioned in the Book of Revelations - Ch. 13 and Chapter 17. When I look at this against Daniel 7 it seems real clear that he's talking about the same beast from Rev 13 however both seem to fit the modicum of the iron legs or 4th kingdom of the Daniel 2 statue (Rome) perfectly. Daniel's discription of the 10 horns with three subdued to make 7, a technical 11th/8th seems to fit the stretch between Augustus Caesar and Domitian, including the Antichrist, the 3 horns subdued, etc.. Also the 3 1/2 years fits the seige of Israel from 66 to 70 AD perfectly.

That brings us to the feet of iron mixed with clay. A scarlet beast this time with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns. The ten crowns are kings 'for an hour' which seems less like true rulership and more like administrative rule for some kind of vigorous imperative. The harlot on the back of the beast comes with the caption "Mystery Babylon The Great: The Mother Of Harlots and The Abominations Of the Earth". The angel explaining this image tells John that she has infected the Kings with her whoredom and the people of the earth seem to be in a more secondary position to that whoredom via their kings.

IMHO these sound like very different problems and the hint of iron and clay for the feet sounds like its an empire that's not really an 'empire' as we'd think of it but that it would have pieces and parts that are Rome-centered (ie. seven hills reiterated by the angel, and reiterated with the iron). If the first 13 chapters are tied to the sacking of Jerusalem and Roman persecution in the first century then we'd be looking at the events of Rev 17 (possibly parts of 14 thru 16) as yet to come.

In that last sense we might be off base to even think that there's any kind of specific 7 year tribulation in this sense?

I'm sure there are some full-futurists or full preterists who might have a better understanding of why no one really puts in the way I have - IMHO I have easier sympathy for the full preterists than full futurists just because one could perhaps call the second beast some part of the later Roman Empire, call the Catholic Church age the millennial reign in an abstract way, and then say that we're really looking more toward Satan's final rebellion before full new heaven and new earth. Even there though - the scarlet beast doesn't really fit anything that I can think of which has already happened.

I'd still love to hear from some other people on this who might have different opinions on the specifics.

I couldn't really get what your interpretation was, but here is mine.

Babylon the Great used to be considered the City of Rome and the Catholic Church as it used to "Rule over the Kings of the Earth" and is on 7 Hills, however, the Revelation is about the time of the end and the end didnt come during said reign.
It also doesn't fulfill many of the identifying markers such as Rome never killed any of the Prophets, it was never in a marriage covenant with God to be considered a Harlot, it never controlled the monetary system.

If you read Matthew 23 you will see Jesus accuses the Jewish elite of Jerusalem to be responsible for all the blood spilt on the Earth, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who killed the Prophets.
At the end of Revelation 18 you will see Babylon the Great is responsible for all the blood spilt on the Earth and the blood of the prophets, so unless Jesus goes around accusing everybody he doesn't like of the same thing, he is identifying who BTG is in Matthew 23.

The Modern Jewish Elite fulfill all the identifying aspects of BTG, Jerusalem sits on 7 hills, it used to be in a marriage covenant with God hence Iam sure I dont need to tell you how often God called Jerusalem a Harlot in the Old Testament.

You would have to do some research on the power of the Big banking families like the Rothschild s to see exactly how much control they weld over most of the world with their control of world banking, for instance one of the members of the House of Lords stated in the Chamber that all three British main parties are controlled by Israel.
Revelation 18 is describing a collapse of the monetary system that will fall when BTG falls.



Regarding the Beasts, it is sometimes considered that the Western world is just a continuation of the Roman Empire, I would warrent that the ten toes of Daniels Image correspond with the 10 horns of the Beast of Revelation, interestingly the 1972 Club of Rome proposed turning the world into 10 regions, the EU being the first of such.

You would also have to research "Global Government" to see how Nations are being pushed into whats called a "New World Order" which just also happens to be written on the back of the dollar under a green pyramid that looks just like the green pyramid on the roof of Rothschilds Israel Supreme Court.
Its also mainly America and the UK that are pushing for this One World Government which might be the two horns of the other Beast of Revelation 13 that causes the World to worship the 7 headed Beast which is this One World Government, maybe under the guise of the United Nations.

There is an interview online were Arron Russo describes what his Rockefeller friend informed him of the Global Elites plan to do away with money, get everyone to have a chip in their right hand, and that the "wont be able to buy or sell" unless they have this chip.

You might also want to research FEMA camps, they have all the infrastructure in place to persecute all those who do not submit to the Beast, Christians will have to endure for the 1290 days of Daniel 12 which Iam sure you notice is the same 3 1/2 years you mentioned elsewhere,
Daniel 7 describes events leading up to Gods Kingdom and the rulership of the Saints, you will notice the terms "Time, times and half a time", once again 3 1/2 years the New World Order will allow to reign and test Gods people.


The whole Global dictatorship conspiracy, isnt an exclusively Jewish thing, there are many Elite Goyim involved, found in the realms of Freemasonry, it is this element that God causes to turn on the Jewish BTG element leading to its destruction in Revelation 17 and 18.

Most of the "Jews" involved are not even Jews anyway, as Revelation 2 and 3 call them, "they say they are Jews but are lying, they are a synagogue of Satan", this lets them hide behind the persecution of ordinary Jews and put the fear of "antisemitism" in the hearts of their critics.

I'll try to cut the floral stuff a bit:

Chapter 13 Beast - Rome from Augustus to Domitian (ie. 31 BC thru 96 AD). These were the Iron legs and fourth beast of Daniel.

Chapter 17 Beast - Black awakening under Illuminist groups both in Catholic Church and hidden leadership of major global governments. This would be the clay and iron feet and a fifth beast that was not in the dream of Daniel 7 as it was still too far in the offing. The series of kingdoms 5 heads, one current at John's time (Rome), one yet to come and then the final seems to do the whole trace of the mystery schools from Babylon/Sumeria forward. In this sense of the term harlot wouldn't be used to describe breaking of marital vows but rather a seductress which wields promises of giving great power, enlightenment, etc. for those not satisfied with what they have.

In this sense I'm also offering that the 3 1/2 years came and went with the sacking of Jerusalem (66 to 70 AD), that the 'locusts' came and went with Vespatian as Apollyon or 'the destroyer' in 70 AD. The 70 weeks of Daniel, as far as I can tell, are outlined very well with the first 7 weeks of years being the Babylonian Captivity, week 7's savior being Cyrus the Great (freed Judah from 49 years captivity), and the next 62 weeks being rebuilding of Jerusalem up through the Old Testament antichrist being Antiochus Epiphanes. In that sense the 70 weeks of Daniel fit very well into the OT.

The thing I'm still trying to figure out though is why most people I read on the topic (at least on the internet) put all of Revelations in the future or dangle a certain week of Daniel out into the future as detatched from the rest. If your saying certain phrasing by the angel in Daniel 12 seals that notion I'll have to read it again when I get back from work, just that as far as I can tell the predictions of Daniel seem to end with Rome for Dan 2 and 7 and Antiochus Epiphanes as well as Herod for Dan 11.

The other thing to add was the statement Jesus made that these things would happen before the generation he was speaking to passed away. That really seems to solidify this abomination that makes desolate as being something imminent, one taken one left being imminent, and if Daniel's abomination that makes desolate already happened prior to Christ's birth then this next abomination that makes desolate was not necessarily crystallized (at least as far as I remember) as being someone taking the temple by power and declaring himself god; Titus sacking the temple in 70 AD could fit that just fine.

As for Rothschilds and NWO - I'd consider that part in parcel with the Illuminist organizations.

Firstly, there is a scripture that says something like, the things that happened before are a pattern of things to come.
So, lots of prophesies and events have a type and anti-type application so can have two fulfillment, a minor one such as the 3 1/2 years the first Christians had to flee into the mountains for to escape the Romans, being an example and warning of the most important part of the Bible, the arrival of Gods Kingdom and Jesus return when Christians will have to again face a three and a half year of persecution.

Daniel 7 v 13 is talking about Jesus called here "the Son of Man", coming with the "Clouds of Heaven", Jesus said he would return as such, it is the end times for it is when God gives Jesus the Kingdom in which all peoples will serve him, just as in Revelation where it says Jesus will rule the Nations with an Iron rod, such things have not yet occurred, so most of Revelation and the similar parts of Daniel must be a future fulfillment.

At the end of Daniel it relates how the Beasts are destroyed and its Kingdom given to the Saints, just as in Daniel 2 v 44 God sets up a Kingdom and the Kingdom of the image are destroyed.

As for the ten toes of Daniel 2v 43, I have seen a few interpretations but like a lot of prophesy, its only really revealed once it happens.
One is that the Iron represents the same Iron as the Iron of the legs that being the Roman system of a totalitarian Fascist Government, and the Clay representing the Democracy of the peoples such as we see today, in fact I would say we are seeing the beginnings of such struggles where the so called democratically elected but fascist Governments are not mixing well with the common people that have been given more power than at any time in the ruler ship of the Image.

Another but more bizarre explanation concerns the expression in verse 43 regarding "they" mixing with the seed of men.
Ive read that the "they" are the genetic descendants of the post flood Nephalim whom of course if they do still exist, the Devil and his Angels would much prefer they to run the world, this view is given partial but deceitful public exposure is such films and books by Dan Brown, it is a possibility the Anti-Christ will claim a bloodline to the real Christ in order to gain acceptance. Could also explain so called UFO and Aliens per-occupation with Human reproduction and genetics, maybe they are searching for their lost children?
Its a view also morphed into the likes of David Ickes Lizard ruling Elite.

Regarding the 70 weeks of years, once again it could have a lessor and greater fulfillment, the greater fulfillment being identified by a complete fulfillment of the prophesy, hence although Cyrus the Great might have fulfilled some of it, he didn't fulfill such parts as the end of sin, the Anointed one, the Anointed one being put to death, the destruction of the city and the sanctuary which was done by the Romans, this prophesies main fulfillment was the arrival of the Messiah including when his death would occur and how long his ministry to the people of the Covenant, the Jews, would be exclusive.

Daniel 12 is talking about the very end times, it mentions the resurrection for instance and everlasting life.
Daniel 11 mentions the Blasphemies against God that are also made by the Beast of Revelation 13 and the Beast of Daniel 7 and that all three also make war against the Saints of the most high. They are all different accounts of the same event that is the climax of the whole story of the Bible, when Gods sovereignty returns to rule over man and poor failed human ruler ship is destroyed forever.

If the Bible was fulfilled over events in Jerusalem thousands of years ago, what happens next?, I wouldn't say the world today is a fitting tribute to the best that God can do, certainly doesn't fulfill Revelation 21

Rather, just as Moses being the type< Jesus will be the Anti-type, both leading Gods people out of slavery under ruler ship of man, through a period of calamity into the promised land, the plagues that were dealt on Egypt to demonstrate to the then world the power of God will be minor in comparison to the plagues of Revelation that will perform a similar function when the Greater Moses, Jesus, leads his people back to a restored promised land which will be far better than the mess that is Jerusalem today.

I'm quite well familiar with that interpretation. The only thing - Enoch is sketchy in how it runs into conflict with other parts of the bible (one of the only things that I think Paradox Brown nails) and the mystery schools use 3 Enoch as justification for Enoch being transformed into Metatron. I do look at Genesis 6 myself and agree that the Sethite (ie. sons of Seth, daughters of Cane) notion doesn't make nearly as much sense as the angel/human scenario.

Then again I think someone else might even have a better idea which ties out transhumanism and 'familiar spirits'. Tom Horn was talking through the mid 2000's and up through the last few years (before he threw it aside to focus on Petrus Romanus) about how he looks at the global creation myths and sees tamperings made with DNA, chimeras being literal things where certain advanced intelligences first mixed genes for creation of specialized slaves but also to open stargates as he calls them. He ties out the current dabbling with human DNA as essentially creating a flesh portal - ie. giving means for things that are in the nonphysical realm and that wish to incarnate but can't a body that's genetically structured right for them to come to the flesh. The argument would be that the spirits of men can be born as men, spirits of dogs as dogs, that outside entities can 'possess' people but the body can never truly be theirs nor can they displace the occupant, however through chimera-making they may be able to bring these cosmic super-intelligences back into being by giving them full flight into what we'd call the physical. Maybe this is part of why Leviticus was incredibly harsh on mediums, channelers, and anyone who wished to communicate with 'familiar spirits' as this was the ultimate aim of such spirits and that after any amount of time in communication they'd be giving directions for such things to those who channel them.

There's another fascinating theory advanced as well that in procreation the mother gives the offspring the body but its the father that gives the soul, hence the fallen angels would find the daughters of men attractive but for much more calculated reasons than sexual arousal.



I'd have to reread the specifications of the annointed one in week 7 (albeit the 62 weeks of rebuilding Jerusalem seems particularly zoned for that time block).

As far as greater/lesser fulfillment, is there a part in scripture that suggests we should be looking for things that way? If you don't know that's fine, just that if its a concoction of scholars to make ends meet rather than something in the bible I worry about the possibility of overelasticizing prophecy.


Rome was truly bloody, truly brutal in its persecution of Christians in such a way that hasn't been seen before or since (even China and Korea are well behind them in Christian-specific vitriol).


This gets precisely to the title of the thread "Two Beasts of Revelation - Thousand Plus Years Apart?". Its what I was getting at here:



I neither believe that the whole of Revelation is in the future at this point (based on how well the Chapter 13 beast ties out with 1st century Rome), nor do I believe that its all in the past because I do believe at a minimum that the beast of Chapter 17 *is* what's yet to come. Note that the return of Christ and millenial reign happen after the fall of the scarlet beast and harlot of Chapter 17.

So my point was that - if my OP hypothesis is correct - we will be strictly dealing with the scarlet beast and rider as our end times yet to come. That also changes the landscape for what we'd expect as far as a seven year tribulation, two prophets, need of the temple being rebuilt - with my OP hypothesis all of that is really extraneous. One hour would essentially be something like a short/brief Tet Offensive by Satan, perhaps as a shot at mass-conversion.

I also agree with people like Tom Horn and Steve Quayle that we'd quite likely have human-looking aliens or something close stop down, chat up the anti-pope of the vatican, the vatican would itself endorse changes to the bible in reflection to what's seen as a superior understanding of Christ's teachings by a race far advanced to ours, they'd have a leader who would fulfill other major religious groups Buddha/Imam/Messiah yet to come as the great spiritual teacher awaited, and essentially what he'd be teaching (much as what Near Death Experiences and many other spiritual channelings would tell us) New Age/Theosophy. When you think about it it's the one thing that doesn't have thousands of years of blood on its hands or at least in any above-board way and thence there's no ancient blood-feud that would make the world uniting under Islam or apostate Catholicism a bit tough to relate. The other thing: there's been a lot for years about a new age ascension and that's been touted as being something that would happen within a year or two of 12/21/12. You have New Agers talking about ascension to the 5th dimension as the earth itself ascends, it sounds identical to biblical 3rd heaven - ie. they're talking about the same territory while one talks about millenial reign of Christ the other talks about something of the likes of 'spiritual feedom' and a benevolent take on Aleister Crowley's 'do what you will'.

And no, I think that most New Agers are incredibly kind people, are people who are frustrated with having to sit life out, aren't hoping to be gods or surpass God but rather just want some kind of access to get to know him rather than have that be something that's reserved only for a small few. At the same time though they don't realize that what they're looking at is a very santized and Pollyanna-ed version of the mystery school religions that's been there the whole time and which had its stronger resergance after the Knights Templar came back and after which we really started having such things as alchemy and reemergence of Egyptian/Sumerian/Neoplatonist mystery teachings (technically the elite religion) in such hidden circles. I think most New Agers would stop dead in their tracks of they started hearing about the greater/lesser Solomon keys, Enochian angel magick, or 'apotheosis' because it would freak them out fast.

Oh I hadn't quite got the gist of your original question, namely, is there a period of a thousand years between Revelation 13 and 17?
Iam presuming you consider them the same entity?

I personally think Revelation 13 and 17 are talking about the same time period, Rev 13 talks about waging war on the Saints, just as in the Daniel books which also mention war with the most High, Revelation 17 mentions war with Jesus.

Revelation 13v 5 once again mentions the 3 1/2 year time period as 42 months which we also looked at in the Daniel prophesies especially Daniel 12 which is talking about the Tribulations and end times.

Revelation 13 talks about being put under compulsion to receive the mark of the Beast, Revelation seems to then relate the destruction of the Rev 17 Beast then Rev 20 starts with the binding of Satan for Jesus 1000 reign then by verse 4 launches into thrones being occupied by those who had remained faithful presumably during that 3 1/2 period of persecution, and that had not worshiped nor taken the mark of the Beast of Revelation 13.

Remember that the 7 headed Beast is actually a composition Beast of all the Beasts over the ages that have affected Gods people at the time.

The scripture I mentioned that says something like a pattern of things to come, I cannot remember where it is, maybe if you Google Type/Antitype you will get a better idea of the notion than I could give.


Very interesting your paragraph on flesh, I wonder why the Demons Legion asked Jesus to remove them into a herd of swine.
I also wonder about the cattle mutilations and if entities are trying to fabricate fleshly bodies.

I have started to read the book of Enoch, but never got far yet, some of its seemed somewhat far- fetched in the way the Jewish Talmud can be to be able to take it as inspired, what do you think of it?

Another factor is the Islamic beliefs about the end as relayed in various Hadiths, they belive in Jesus coming to save Gods people, but they also belive in the beast coming out of the sea and talking the same as in Rev 13, but they believe it will be a literal animal that comes out of the literal sea and talks!
They are waiting for that to happen soon.

No, I'm very specifically saying that they are two distinctly different beasts - one is the legs of iron, the other is the feet of iron and clay. One IMHO is first century AD spanning Augustus Caesar through Domitian, the other (scarlet beast and rider) is 2013+ however many years - it could start tomorrow, it could start hundreds of years from now for all we know albeit its looking more likely than not to be soon. Your right in stating further down that the Rev 17 scarlet beast and rider are overarching of all previous beasts but that beast is fought on its own in a direct sense I believe later - ie. in our near or distant future.


I really don't think most people realize exactly what Rome did. I mean everyone knows the story of Christians being thrown to the lions, a few know about Nero having Christians dowsed in oil and burned at stakes as torches to light his garden parties, fewer people know that all of the Caesar and Flavian emperors declared emperor worship as the only allowable religion and Domition - who I really think was the antichrist had the 'lordy day' in which he had his soldiers ask all of the people what god they worshipped. Those of Rome who weren't Christian would gladly say the Caesar because they'd have nothing to lose if it were either true of their beliefs or if they worshipped a diety who wouldn't care that they did so. He also knew that the Christians believed that if they said 'Caesar' that their God, per the bible, would cast them into hell for denying him - so, he had the soldiers go out and kill all who admitted their Christianity. Things like this get lost in the annals of history and much to our detriment. This is exactly how, IMHO, the first century Roman Empire fits all the metrics of the beast, antichrist and false prophet. The beast of Revelation 17 claims to sort of repackage/reincarnate one of these so we will see a powerful antichristal figure (anti really just means 'in lieu of') but if this is all correct we will be looking at a much more abridged period.

About the only group of people who came close to the type of persecution of Christians through Europe or raw barbarism of Rome was the Tartars/Mongols. That's not at all to belittle caliphate Islam of the time and its behavior of any new church being the takeover of any church of another religion as a permanent and irrevocable Islamic holy site, just that we really all too often belittle or forget just how bad Rome was.



The thing about this though is it would be the first time I'm aware of when bible prophecy was related to a complete lump-sum that's a few thousand years in the offing. Daniel 11 was a constant and paced prophecy, Daniel 7 would be also a very evenly paced prophecy if we were to consider the last beast with 7 heads and 8/11 horns to be the legs of iron (and if it isn't then the legs of iron - commonly considered Rome) would have no beast to cover it in his dream - thus you'd have a beast representing Babylon, a beast representing Persia, a Beast representing Greece and Alexander the great, no beast representing Rome, and then the large beast mentioned above being some beast that would manifest 2500+ years from his date of prophecy. It doesn't seem to sit in consistency with the rest of the dream.

As far as my claim on Daniel 11 being a prophecy from his time to Herod, here's a remarkable site I found that details the fulfillments of Daniel 11:
http://pages.suddenlink.net/dalede/dan11.htm


Right, its the battery/fuel that the cylinders of those Empires have run on. Its quite likely, as far as I can best guess, the mystery teachings which went below ground in the Helenistic period and which resurfaced with force in the middle ages after the Crusades.


That could well be with John at Patmos, and if all of that was prefaced it could imply that its all future.

The biggest challenge against my own suggestion, ie. Dan 7/Rev 13 beast as Empire Rome is that Revelation was supposedly written in 95 AD whereas the span from Augustus to Domitian was 31 BC to 96 AD. That could mean a few things - either that he was trying to give the church at that time a bit of a cypher-key so they'd be able to make sense of everything that he would say after that. Also the woman with the twelve stars giving birth and the dragon trying to take the child - people have said its the church, it sounds more like the Messiah but that would be clearly 4 BC not post-95 AD, especially when the Lord is supposed to come back literally in the sky with an unmistakeable apocalyptic entry rather than being reborn in the flesh. That passage - no matter how we read it or who's read we take of it is tricky to deal with unless we're able to figure that Revelation has content - even as John is writing it - that is both historical and future in his time simultaneously.



Similarly I can't deny that the locusts of revelations and Abaddon might not be Nimrod and his army given physical form via lab creation. If you know who Jack Parsons was who founded JPL he was a HUGE occult guy, its very possible that there are many scientific minds in the community at this moment are very similar types of people to Jack Parsons and may very well see themselves in a sort of megalomaniac way being rewarded for helping to fulfill a prophecy. Aleister Crowley similar studied the heck out of John Dee and Edward Kelly's Enochian material, the 48 or 49 invocations he could find (30 openings of aethers/elementals plus 18 keys/calls) which he enacted in 1904 in the desert of Algeria which I can't remember if that was before or after his conversation with Isis and Horus and his receipt of 'The Law'.

BTW, Nambo, I just had a HUGE realization while I was out at lunch today.

Remember when I said that part of Revelation was historical? All of a sudden now the woman with 12 stars giving birth, the dragon trying to take the child, and the escape - all came together for me. That was the virgin birth of Christ, the dragon was Herod's census, and Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were taken into the wilderness to be saved from the attack. That also further validates talk the 4th beast being 31 BC to 96 AD.

I'm going to have to make a point to sign up for Christian Forums tonight and offer this one for criticism. I *might* have stumbled on something much bigger than I previously realized.

Maybe, but Revelation 12 says the Man child, (Jesus) was taken up to God and his throne, leaving the Woman to flee to the wilderness for 1260 days, it also gooes on to say in verse 13 that when the Dragon was cast down to Earth, (where it couldnt persecyte Jesus who was in Heaven, it went to persecute the Woman in the wilderness for, once again, 3 1/2 tears.

So, The account has Satan persecuting, not Jesus, but the Woman in the wilderness and for a period of not 5 yearsm byt 3 1./2 years, therfore, I think the Woman, isnt Mary, but is a representation of Gods wife in that God was in a marriage covernant with Israel, he often refers to Israel as if she was a human female, it was via this woman that the Christ was born, ie, via the Isrealities as oppossed to via a single woman Mary.
I think it more likely the senario of Revelation 12 isnt pointing to Jesus infancy, but could be pointing to the period when Jesus had died and just before the Romans sacked Jerusalem when the early Christian Church might have been destroyed by the Roamns in 70ad if those Christians hadnt heeded Jesus words to flee to the mountains were they waited for 3 1/2 years.

Let me know what the Christian forums say.

I think you might be absolutely right on that. Mary was of the twelve tribes but she might have literally been meant to represent the nation of Israel bringing forth the Messiah.

I'll try to post something in Christian Forums tonight but I'll strictly broach it as a hypothetical and even ask them to take the ax to it wherever it doesn't add up just to see what they come up with.

BTW, I'm reading an article right now by a Catholic article that deals with the situation we're discussing above - ie. the force you and I (I think) both agree to be the scarlet woman of Mystery Babylon:

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ ... -age91.htm

I wonder if you too have abandoned the false mediators with their doctrines of men and gone directly to the true mediator between God and man?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Thinking more about my last post regarding that maybe it occurred at the Roman sacking of Jerusalem, I still think that is a minor fulfillment because I dont think that war broke out in Heaven at that time or that Satan and his demons where cast to the earth then, for it says, woe to the Earth as the Devil has great anger knowing he has a short period of time.

At the moment I think we are still in the stage were the Devil still hopes to be successful and is still in the process of creating hie One World Government that is in his image.

Truthfully I don't think I'm a Christian quite as much as a whore who hopes to become a Christian and is still in the process of trying to get himself right. I was a pretty strong new-ager from March of last year until December, was an agnostic/atheist for the better part of ten years before that. I know that it wasn't overt intellectual dishonesty, I just sought like crazy and didn't find perhaps because of the corruption of the social group that I ran with and not really knowing that I was unfit in the state I was in. Regardless I still feel like I have a long way to go before I can call myself a Christian.

If Petrus Romanus is correct the Catholic Church might reach brand new heights of ecumenism and synchretism. If that happens I'd say we're getting a lot closer.

You and me both but you sure have gained a lot of understanding since December!

Some things that might help you not to feel unworthy which is what the Devil gets Christian churches to make us feel, unworthy.

Remember the parable of the two men who were let off a debt, one small and the other large, Jesus said that the one with the largest debt would Love the forgiving creditor the most, ie, the more unworthy we are, the more we will Love Jesus for forgiving us.

Dont forget the lowly tax collector who tore his robes and said be mercy-full to me a sinner, Jesus said he was more righteous than that self righteous Priest who felt he had no need of repentance.

And Jesus likened himself to a doctor saying only the sick need a doctor, and that he was the good physician who had come to call sinners to repentance.

Well... I'd say the combination of the Old Testament and the messages of Fatima have me thinking that way. Any church I go to feels like its lenient of to be half-way to being a Theosophic Society on those terms which is why I need to be self-sufficient in this regard. I *know* I'm unworthy, however I also know that only matters if I'm not in communion with Christ or if I'm not mindful of that and not asking the Lord for help. The NT does talk about greater leniency given to people in proportion to their compassion on others, I've tried to live that even prior to coming back to Christ anyway so that's not particularly new. OTOH I still think there's a line between compassion and lax so I have to be somewhat careful.


I think reading Theresa of Avila sort of clued me in as well that there's an order of salience and she understood it. At first I thought she sounded a lot like Maynard from Tool in word-craft until I realized that her self-deprecation was really that sincere. Don't get me wrong, you won't catch me practicing mortification - I don't think its healthy - but I do see myself examining the heck out of my own mind and motivations.

The other thing that worries me as well and really shows the state of mind that the Lord is in right now. At the 1917 apparition of Fatima Mary stated that the Lord was already in a near OT state of wrath, that she was the only one restraining him, and that she needed people to offer prayer to him through her to get more control of the situation as well as consecrate Russia (which never was done).

Two things that are far more frightening than that: 1) NDE'ers are consistantly meeting a very sunny, cheerful, all-loving and all-forgiving deity where no one seems to go to hell 2) The old rule of New Age debunkers that channeled entities could not declare Jesus as Lord due to their evil nature has already been broken - ie. even they can now envoke the name of the Lord and make exception to that rule. That tells me, if he's allowing for such levels of imitation and even proof in favor of New Age/Theosophy/Masonry and it sounds like he's at Numbers/Joshua levels of wrath in hardening hearts, letting as many hearts as naturally desire to feel full license by front-end evidence to get drunk on the harlot's cup, and as many people as possible to be thrown on an 80 degree water-slide right down.


I don't at all want to lessen or undermine his mercy, but from what I'm seeing when I look around and read - our current culture is a phenomenal poison and I really don't know how much our surroundings matter. I'm sure he's taking that into account but I definitely don't, by any means, feel like testing the threshold. Besides that I want to get my life on straight, help him in his endeavors, I just hope that I can be on good enough terms with him to gin up some type of communication even if that's an introductory rebuking for everything I'm still doing wrong. I want to get the current paradigm right desperately.

My pastor had held a Bible study class on the book of Revelation, in which he taught us that most of what occurs in the book is already passed. For the time it was written in, it was concerning current events and the recent past, and that the bizarre imagery in the book is written in the apocalyptic style of Persia, along with Greek metaphor, therefore it's an impossibility to grasp it's meaning without knowing these facts. This is the common view of us Lutherans and other mainline denominations. On top of that, both Martin Luther and John Calvin had cast doubt on whether or not the book was even divinely inspired, let alone should have been included in church canon. Most mainline churches today regard Revelation as little more than a minor book with no real doctrinal significance, other than to say that the thousand years is the indeterminate period of time between Christ's resurrection and ascension and his return - or in other words, the thousand years is the here and now.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer